5 ms·

> For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of ta

> For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of talking in their name and that just want to leave in peace instead of being locked down in their country to fight, meaning their life is in the hands of others that force them to go to the war to kill each other. This is exactly what I am demanding from EU: do not decide in my name things that block trade, create energy scarcity and on top of that I have to finance. If someone is willing to fight this cause, of course the european bureaucrats the first ones, go fight in the war, but do not involve the rest of us. If some day they come to my door I will decide on that basis. It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country. By this measure we should all fighting each other all the time almost. I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? They would run away god knows where to hide god knows how much money from favors and a ton of things we might not know. A politician is probably the kind of person I trust the least. I am not talking about specifics. I say the profession. Most are bad.

mantas 4y ago
I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.
- germandiago 4y ago
  My point is not that you are right or wrong. My point is that both kind of russians and ukranian exist that agree/disagree with other people's choices and they have to put their life in danger because someone else decided for them. Look how people are running away from Russia right now to not get recruited. I fiercely oppose to choices from others and consequences for a third one. If someone finds very important for their country, for their freedom or for whatever, no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war. Do not count on me, but if someone wants to do it and puts their words where they put their choices, that is ok. Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Well, for Ukrainians it's pretty simple. When you're attacked, you defend. And usually it's not your choice that you got attacked.... As for Russians, it's not „Putin's war“. Russians got what they wanted for a long time. Many of those who are running today were happy with the war till it came banging at their door. Look at Russian history of the past 300 years. Many people over here do believe Russia is the exceptional saviour of whatever. Just look at ecstasy over annexing Crimea. Even opposition had to play along because saying anything against it would not be accepted by society at large. Some Russians saw writing on the wall since 2008 or even earlier. Many left after 2014. The most optimist ones stuck till spring of this year... But there's no large enough mass of people to do anything and overthrow the regime :D > no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war Ukrainians ain't „contributing to the war“. They're defending their home. > Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else. Ultimately such is life. Going to war feels more personal, but others are guiding your life every day. And human societies built out precisely because of this group work. Individually, humans can't do much. Wether against nature or other humans who do organise. And neither other humans, nor nature doesn't care about your feelings. But the bigger problem is when others' inaction prevents those who do want to intervene. Coming back to East vs West in europe. West was calling us „Rusophobes“ for years. Well, it turns out West was „Russophiles“ instead. Yet old line still holds and West seem to be holding East on a leash to not do too much against Russia. Because muh contributing to war... :( In other words, making choices for others.

mantas 4y ago

I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.

germandiago 4y ago
My point is not that you are right or wrong. My point is that both kind of russians and ukranian exist that agree/disagree with other people's choices and they have to put their life in danger because someone else decided for them. Look how people are running away from Russia right now to not get recruited. I fiercely oppose to choices from others and consequences for a third one. If someone finds very important for their country, for their freedom or for whatever, no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war. Do not count on me, but if someone wants to do it and puts their words where they put their choices, that is ok. Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else.
- mantas 4y ago
  Well, for Ukrainians it's pretty simple. When you're attacked, you defend. And usually it's not your choice that you got attacked.... As for Russians, it's not „Putin's war“. Russians got what they wanted for a long time. Many of those who are running today were happy with the war till it came banging at their door. Look at Russian history of the past 300 years. Many people over here do believe Russia is the exceptional saviour of whatever. Just look at ecstasy over annexing Crimea. Even opposition had to play along because saying anything against it would not be accepted by society at large. Some Russians saw writing on the wall since 2008 or even earlier. Many left after 2014. The most optimist ones stuck till spring of this year... But there's no large enough mass of people to do anything and overthrow the regime :D > no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war Ukrainians ain't „contributing to the war“. They're defending their home. > Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else. Ultimately such is life. Going to war feels more personal, but others are guiding your life every day. And human societies built out precisely because of this group work. Individually, humans can't do much. Wether against nature or other humans who do organise. And neither other humans, nor nature doesn't care about your feelings. But the bigger problem is when others' inaction prevents those who do want to intervene. Coming back to East vs West in europe. West was calling us „Rusophobes“ for years. Well, it turns out West was „Russophiles“ instead. Yet old line still holds and West seem to be holding East on a leash to not do too much against Russia. Because muh contributing to war... :( In other words, making choices for others.