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Except it’d be the end of a $20B company that I have a huge stake in ensuring doesn’t end. So, so long as I’m CEO, there’s no way in hell that’ll happen. If all

Except it’d be the end of a $20B company that I have a huge stake in ensuring doesn’t end. So, so long as I’m CEO, there’s no way in hell that’ll happen. If all you believe in is my economic interest, it’s far more lucrative to be the trusted, private network over time than any alternative. And so we’ll invest like crazy to ensure, even if compelled, we wouldn’t have the ability to compromise the integrity of the data flowing through our network.

humanistbot 4y ago
If I was the US Government / NSA, I'd pay $20 billion to secretly own cloudflare.
- eftychis 4y ago
  Plus premium. It would be free in practice.
bogomipz 4y ago
>"If all you believe in is my economic interest, it’s far more lucrative to be the trusted, private network over time than any alternative." And yet AT&T has proven otherwise. [1][2] [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/T/at-t/stock-price-history https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/T/at-t/stock-price... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
iknowstuff 4y ago
The person you are responding to wasn’t suggesting you are altering the data (“compromising its integrity”), but snooping on it, which you obviously have the ability to do and can be compelled to do it.
johnklos 4y ago
Even if we take what you say at face value, you've already done too many things that err much more on the side of money than on the side of doing the right thing. But honestly, any casual consideration of Occam's razor with relation to your company's actions would be much more simply understood if we consider that Cloudflare wants to be a monopoly. Is Cloudflare ever going to stop trying to centralize more and more of the Internet? Please - go ahead and tell me about how, at some point, because you care so much about being trusted, you'll say, "You know what? We're getting too big. Let's pump the brakes on that and help out some other companies so the Internet's resilience won't be harmed." Could that ever happen? Would that ever happen? Or will you just keep finding excuses and telling lies about how what you're doing for the world is for "everyone's own good"?
yabones 4y ago
Right, but 641 wasn't about the integrity of the data, it was about the confidentiality. They had a big-ass fibre splitter intercepting the firehose of the internet, and presumably running protocol analysis on "their" copy of it. They weren't injecting malware into it a la Sony, just grabbing a carbon copy. And largely, people were okay with it in the name of "national security" following the September 11th attacks. I have every confidence that CF doesn't do that today, but since it's the termination point for TLS for a HUGE portion of the internet (including my own sites ;p), that seems like a huge target for feds to try to tap into. I think a lot of peoples' concern is that someday it could happen under a more authoritarian cabinet and court. As long as it can be done, it eventually will. Absolutely nobody wants that, save for a couple very under-educated and highly powerful individuals. But the rest of us might not have a choice.
peterhadlaw 4y ago
Would be nice if you acted as a neutral infrastructure party.
kebdjsvdjsbs 4y ago
hi. love CF and all the free services. care to elaborate on the interview you mention the DHS hinted to the value of CF (nee honepot)? was it a formal feedback? from a person related to dhs but in a personal setting? how that happened? and what relationship continued/started from it?
ranger_danger 4y ago
Why do you continue to provide services to 0chan.life who openly post massive amounts of monkey torture videos?
orthecreedence 4y ago
You don't have a choice in the matter. Your refusal would simply mean your imprisonment. Economics has absolutely nothing to do with it. Welcome to the modern surveillance state.
- eftychis 4y ago
  It is not even his choice necessarily. They can go to a different person in the company with the notorious letter.
  - orthecreedence 4y ago
    Agreed. And let's be honest...they already have.
- amoshi 4y ago
  Imprisonment or the company being bled dry[0]. [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsuit-documents-fine-user-data-refusal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-laws...
mike_d 4y ago
> we’ll invest like crazy to ensure, even if compelled, we wouldn’t have the ability to compromise the integrity of the data flowing through our network By aggregating the whole internet onto Cloudflare you are creating choke points where fiber taps are far more effective to deploy than the previous situation where they needed to tap hundreds of different regional providers. Sure you can do encryption for data in flight, but your keys and CA infrastructure now become one of the most valuable intelligence targets. Unless you can attest that not a single CF employee has family in China, or gambling problems here in the US, was born in Russia, etc. there is a weakness somewhere waiting to be exploited. We don't care what makes financial sense for you now. One day you will be dead, and what you created will be taken private by a well resourced entity with less morals.
LightHugger 4y ago
You already have? You've proven that you'll just do whatever media tells you to do. Media is not exactly very dangerous. Why wouldn't you also fold to far more dangerous government pressure, especially if you're also being pressured by media at the same time?
temptemptemp111 4y ago
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
Counterarguments to that: - Room 641A wasn't the end of AT&T, and I'm sure the three-letter agencies have a way to make your economic interest align with theirs (e.g. through legal or extralegal threats). - Even if you personally are trying to prevent it, they can compel employees and plant a backdoor, possibly a non-obvious kleptographic one in the encryption you use in the backbone. You might genuinely not know if it was happening (and if you knew, you'd be forced to deny it, both to preserve the stake you mentioned and presumably due to dire consequences from the three-letter agencies if you talked). - Snowden revealed the existence PRISM, but the details and level of collaboration are still not really known today. The companies have certainly survived it. All the negatives sides of collaboration only manifest if it is discovered, which is far from guaranteed. Just to be clear, this is not accusing you of being corrupt, malicious, or a willing participant, just pointing out the harsh reality that your wish to not participate in this may not matter much.

humanistbot 4y ago

If I was the US Government / NSA, I'd pay $20 billion to secretly own cloudflare.

eftychis 4y ago
Plus premium. It would be free in practice.

bogomipz 4y ago

>"If all you believe in is my economic interest, it’s far more lucrative to be the trusted, private network over time than any alternative." And yet AT&T has proven otherwise. [1][2] [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/T/at-t/stock-price-history https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/T/at-t/stock-price... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

iknowstuff 4y ago

The person you are responding to wasn’t suggesting you are altering the data (“compromising its integrity”), but snooping on it, which you obviously have the ability to do and can be compelled to do it.

johnklos 4y ago

Even if we take what you say at face value, you've already done too many things that err much more on the side of money than on the side of doing the right thing. But honestly, any casual consideration of Occam's razor with relation to your company's actions would be much more simply understood if we consider that Cloudflare wants to be a monopoly. Is Cloudflare ever going to stop trying to centralize more and more of the Internet? Please - go ahead and tell me about how, at some point, because you care so much about being trusted, you'll say, "You know what? We're getting too big. Let's pump the brakes on that and help out some other companies so the Internet's resilience won't be harmed." Could that ever happen? Would that ever happen? Or will you just keep finding excuses and telling lies about how what you're doing for the world is for "everyone's own good"?

yabones 4y ago

Right, but 641 wasn't about the integrity of the data, it was about the confidentiality. They had a big-ass fibre splitter intercepting the firehose of the internet, and presumably running protocol analysis on "their" copy of it. They weren't injecting malware into it a la Sony, just grabbing a carbon copy. And largely, people were okay with it in the name of "national security" following the September 11th attacks. I have every confidence that CF doesn't do that today, but since it's the termination point for TLS for a HUGE portion of the internet (including my own sites ;p), that seems like a huge target for feds to try to tap into. I think a lot of peoples' concern is that someday it could happen under a more authoritarian cabinet and court. As long as it can be done, it eventually will. Absolutely nobody wants that, save for a couple very under-educated and highly powerful individuals. But the rest of us might not have a choice.

peterhadlaw 4y ago

Would be nice if you acted as a neutral infrastructure party.

kebdjsvdjsbs 4y ago

hi. love CF and all the free services. care to elaborate on the interview you mention the DHS hinted to the value of CF (nee honepot)? was it a formal feedback? from a person related to dhs but in a personal setting? how that happened? and what relationship continued/started from it?

ranger_danger 4y ago

Why do you continue to provide services to 0chan.life who openly post massive amounts of monkey torture videos?

orthecreedence 4y ago

You don't have a choice in the matter. Your refusal would simply mean your imprisonment. Economics has absolutely nothing to do with it. Welcome to the modern surveillance state.

eftychis 4y ago
It is not even his choice necessarily. They can go to a different person in the company with the notorious letter.
- orthecreedence 4y ago
  Agreed. And let's be honest...they already have.
amoshi 4y ago
Imprisonment or the company being bled dry[0]. [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsuit-documents-fine-user-data-refusal https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-laws...

mike_d 4y ago

> we’ll invest like crazy to ensure, even if compelled, we wouldn’t have the ability to compromise the integrity of the data flowing through our network By aggregating the whole internet onto Cloudflare you are creating choke points where fiber taps are far more effective to deploy than the previous situation where they needed to tap hundreds of different regional providers. Sure you can do encryption for data in flight, but your keys and CA infrastructure now become one of the most valuable intelligence targets. Unless you can attest that not a single CF employee has family in China, or gambling problems here in the US, was born in Russia, etc. there is a weakness somewhere waiting to be exploited. We don't care what makes financial sense for you now. One day you will be dead, and what you created will be taken private by a well resourced entity with less morals.

LightHugger 4y ago

You already have? You've proven that you'll just do whatever media tells you to do. Media is not exactly very dangerous. Why wouldn't you also fold to far more dangerous government pressure, especially if you're also being pressured by media at the same time?

temptemptemp111 4y ago

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago

Counterarguments to that: - Room 641A wasn't the end of AT&T, and I'm sure the three-letter agencies have a way to make your economic interest align with theirs (e.g. through legal or extralegal threats). - Even if you personally are trying to prevent it, they can compel employees and plant a backdoor, possibly a non-obvious kleptographic one in the encryption you use in the backbone. You might genuinely not know if it was happening (and if you knew, you'd be forced to deny it, both to preserve the stake you mentioned and presumably due to dire consequences from the three-letter agencies if you talked). - Snowden revealed the existence PRISM, but the details and level of collaboration are still not really known today. The companies have certainly survived it. All the negatives sides of collaboration only manifest if it is discovered, which is far from guaranteed. Just to be clear, this is not accusing you of being corrupt, malicious, or a willing participant, just pointing out the harsh reality that your wish to not participate in this may not matter much.