3 ms·

Zen 4 (Raphael) desktop CPUs will have it. Right now, Zen 3 (Chagall) and Zen 4 Threadripper (Storm Peak) don't currently have plans for integrating it, but tha

Zen 4 (Raphael) desktop CPUs will have it. Right now, Zen 3 (Chagall) and Zen 4 Threadripper (Storm Peak) don't currently have plans for integrating it, but that may be subject to change. I cannot provide proof, but I sure as hell am never buying Zen 4 or later AMD Desktop CPUs ever again for a system that will be connected to the internet.

dschuetz 4y ago
I would not go that far saying I won't buy AMD ever again, but if Microsoft has a foot in the door inside my systems in form of creepware like Pluton it is there for keeping the door open.
- anonym29 4y ago
  I edited to clarify. I would consider using them on a system that never gets connected to the internet.
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    I am also paranoiac about such things, but the part with avoiding the connection to the Internet is easy for a desktop computer, if it also does not run Windows, where you never know what services might be active and with which external servers they might try to communicate. I have a small computer that is used as the router for the Internet connection and on which I have complete control over the firewall and over the proxies used for connecting to the Internet, so there are no chances for an unwanted connection to the Internet. For additional protection, one could run the Internet browsers in a Virtual Machine, to be absolutely certain that there is no way for a script run by the browser to access the physical hardware, assuming that you do not trust the sandboxing capabilities of the browser.
    - anonym29 4y ago
      VMs are an imperfect solution to preventing programs running in the guest OS from affecting the host OS (imperfect, as VM escapes are a thing). VMs do not provide protection to the guest OS (or it's processes) from inspection and snooping by the host OS, or from inspection / snooping by the hardware the host OS is running on. If using a bare metal hypervisor, sed 's/host OS/hypervisor/g'
gruez 4y ago
FWIW it's already present on Zen 3+ (Rembrandt) CPUs. However, at least on lenovo you can disable it (there's an option in the BIOS that allows you to toggle between TPM 2.0 and pluton).
nine_k 4y ago
What remains for a desktop system then? Is Intel in a drastically better shape? (I know about Talos.)
- anonym29 4y ago
  No, Intel's 13th generation (Raptor Lake) chips are slated to have it too. I suspect that like with Threadrippers, some Xeons will not ship with it, but I am not as confident about this as I am for Threadrippers, for reasons I cannot divulge.
xxpor 4y ago
Maybe I'm interpreting this comment incorrectly but I'm begging people to realize if they're a normal person and they have the NSA at the top of their threat model they're bad at internalizing relative risk.
- anonym29 4y ago
  You do appear to be interpreting it incorrectly. This is about Pluton, for which the threat actor is Microsoft. People concerned about the NSA would need to be worried going all the way back to the introduction of AMD PSP back in 2011. Now, with regards to the important part of your message, I'm begging people to realize that if they're blindly trusting all code running on all firmware in their personal machine, they are even worse at accurately internalizing risk than those who are proactively paranoid.
  - xxpor 4y ago
    I would argue not trusting MS is even sillier. Like it or not, they run most desktops around the world. Even if you only run the purest NetBSD at home, nearly everything someone knows about you will touch Windows at some point. In terms of secureboot et al, MS hasn't done any of the shenanigans people were worried about. You can still turn off SB on every x86 desktop. What is the actual risk here? At the end of the day, MS isn't the government. Raptor Systems is right there for the truly paranoid.
    - anonym29 4y ago
      You're right that MS isn't the government - they have fewer restrictions on behavior than government does, and a financial incentive to snoop on people the government doesn't care about. If you're aware of the risks, you do you, just don't kid yourself into thinking the third most valuable company on the planet is diligently concerned with protecting your privacy and putting your interests above their own.

dschuetz 4y ago

I would not go that far saying I won't buy AMD ever again, but if Microsoft has a foot in the door inside my systems in form of creepware like Pluton it is there for keeping the door open.

anonym29 4y ago
I edited to clarify. I would consider using them on a system that never gets connected to the internet.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  I am also paranoiac about such things, but the part with avoiding the connection to the Internet is easy for a desktop computer, if it also does not run Windows, where you never know what services might be active and with which external servers they might try to communicate. I have a small computer that is used as the router for the Internet connection and on which I have complete control over the firewall and over the proxies used for connecting to the Internet, so there are no chances for an unwanted connection to the Internet. For additional protection, one could run the Internet browsers in a Virtual Machine, to be absolutely certain that there is no way for a script run by the browser to access the physical hardware, assuming that you do not trust the sandboxing capabilities of the browser.
  - anonym29 4y ago
    VMs are an imperfect solution to preventing programs running in the guest OS from affecting the host OS (imperfect, as VM escapes are a thing). VMs do not provide protection to the guest OS (or it's processes) from inspection and snooping by the host OS, or from inspection / snooping by the hardware the host OS is running on. If using a bare metal hypervisor, sed 's/host OS/hypervisor/g'

gruez 4y ago

FWIW it's already present on Zen 3+ (Rembrandt) CPUs. However, at least on lenovo you can disable it (there's an option in the BIOS that allows you to toggle between TPM 2.0 and pluton).

nine_k 4y ago

What remains for a desktop system then? Is Intel in a drastically better shape? (I know about Talos.)

anonym29 4y ago
No, Intel's 13th generation (Raptor Lake) chips are slated to have it too. I suspect that like with Threadrippers, some Xeons will not ship with it, but I am not as confident about this as I am for Threadrippers, for reasons I cannot divulge.

xxpor 4y ago

Maybe I'm interpreting this comment incorrectly but I'm begging people to realize if they're a normal person and they have the NSA at the top of their threat model they're bad at internalizing relative risk.

anonym29 4y ago
You do appear to be interpreting it incorrectly. This is about Pluton, for which the threat actor is Microsoft. People concerned about the NSA would need to be worried going all the way back to the introduction of AMD PSP back in 2011. Now, with regards to the important part of your message, I'm begging people to realize that if they're blindly trusting all code running on all firmware in their personal machine, they are even worse at accurately internalizing risk than those who are proactively paranoid.
- xxpor 4y ago
  I would argue not trusting MS is even sillier. Like it or not, they run most desktops around the world. Even if you only run the purest NetBSD at home, nearly everything someone knows about you will touch Windows at some point. In terms of secureboot et al, MS hasn't done any of the shenanigans people were worried about. You can still turn off SB on every x86 desktop. What is the actual risk here? At the end of the day, MS isn't the government. Raptor Systems is right there for the truly paranoid.
  - anonym29 4y ago
    You're right that MS isn't the government - they have fewer restrictions on behavior than government does, and a financial incentive to snoop on people the government doesn't care about. If you're aware of the risks, you do you, just don't kid yourself into thinking the third most valuable company on the planet is diligently concerned with protecting your privacy and putting your interests above their own.