5 ms·

Kahneman hedges just a bit in his talk: " To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters." Trying to explain

by Digory 4y ago

Kahneman hedges just a bit in his talk: " To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters." Trying to explain the small number of people who do change their minds, David McRaney has an interesting book out called How Minds Change.[0] And I imagine there are people who change minds, even outside his model. People who change their minds when it doesn't seem to help them strike me as important people to hear from. [0] https://www.econtalk.org/david-mcraney-on-how-minds-change/ https://www.econtalk.org/david-mcraney-on-how-minds-change/

agumonkey 4y ago
I've seen a strange case, where someone argued blindly, but the next day advocated for the change. He didn't say it was his own idea but he didn't told he changed his mind :)
- bombcar 4y ago
  You will find this again and again in the business world, and you can use it to your advantage. If you're arguing for a course of action, answer the objections well and then drop it. Often the person arguing against you (especially if they're "the boss") will come back a few days later and present it as basically their idea. People get emotionally tied to what they came up with, and it can take a few nights to disconnect enough to move on (even if they never admit they were "wrong").
  - agumonkey 4y ago
    People are so strange. They don't see the waste and friction due to these reflexes :) But about the 'drop' aspect, I think there's a reflex for other to argue someone to infinity if it become a belief confrontation, a kind of domination to impose their view. But if the other party drops the fight, it kills that aspect and the other person can accept the idea for its core value.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      That's exactly it; we like to pretend we're some advanced computational AI operating on pure rationality, but we're actually a bag of meat with an inferiority complex. And much of the "unreasonable rules" of society are built around exactly that, and if we abandon those we often have to relearn them again and again. Recognizing they exist can allow "the boss" to cut the issue short with a "I need to think about this" and de-escalate that way.
vanderZwan 4y ago
Assuming a good-faith discussion, I tend to ask people "can you tell me why it is important to you that X is true?" (or false, or whatever) these days. Of course I should also be open about why a particular view is important to me in those situations. It seems to be the most effective way maintaining a productive conversation when disagreeing on things, regardless of whether we'll agree in the end.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  I would immediately end a discussion if I were asked that question. If you want to dismiss me by trying to imply my opinion is driven by a want of something other than accuracy with reality, I can find other people to spend my time with.
  - kmill 4y ago
    Where are you getting that they'd want to "dismiss you?" Smart and well-informed people can come to different interpretations of reality that are accurate in their own ways. It's interesting to know what sorts of consequences to such interpretations a person finds to be important for their worldview. Once we're talking about dismissing someone, we've long left the realm of good-faith discussion, which was assumed in the situation you're responding to.
    - ivalm 4y ago
      “why it is important to you that X is true?” implies subjectivism in the belief system. While I think belief systems are largely subjective some people think of them as objective and take offense on suggestions that their beliefs are “just” subjective.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        I have a close group of friends that consists of an athiest, an agnostic, a hindu, and 2 christians, and outside of 1 of those christians, we've all been friends for at least 13 years (1 of those relationships since 1994). No one had to ask the hindu why they got upset when the athiest came by and stood next to the statue of buddha chomping on a mcdonalds beef biscuit. The athiest didn't think about it, those two had a conversation afterwards, and they still get along just fine to this day (some 10 years later). This is NOT about beliefs being objective or not. That group of friends has lasted over the years due to a fundamental respect of each other as PEOPLE. Someone who asks that particular question lacks such respect and as such are not going to be given any headspace by me.

by Digory 4y ago

agumonkey 4y ago

I've seen a strange case, where someone argued blindly, but the next day advocated for the change. He didn't say it was his own idea but he didn't told he changed his mind :)

bombcar 4y ago
You will find this again and again in the business world, and you can use it to your advantage. If you're arguing for a course of action, answer the objections well and then drop it. Often the person arguing against you (especially if they're "the boss") will come back a few days later and present it as basically their idea. People get emotionally tied to what they came up with, and it can take a few nights to disconnect enough to move on (even if they never admit they were "wrong").
- agumonkey 4y ago
  People are so strange. They don't see the waste and friction due to these reflexes :) But about the 'drop' aspect, I think there's a reflex for other to argue someone to infinity if it become a belief confrontation, a kind of domination to impose their view. But if the other party drops the fight, it kills that aspect and the other person can accept the idea for its core value.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    That's exactly it; we like to pretend we're some advanced computational AI operating on pure rationality, but we're actually a bag of meat with an inferiority complex. And much of the "unreasonable rules" of society are built around exactly that, and if we abandon those we often have to relearn them again and again. Recognizing they exist can allow "the boss" to cut the issue short with a "I need to think about this" and de-escalate that way.

vanderZwan 4y ago

Assuming a good-faith discussion, I tend to ask people "can you tell me why it is important to you that X is true?" (or false, or whatever) these days. Of course I should also be open about why a particular view is important to me in those situations. It seems to be the most effective way maintaining a productive conversation when disagreeing on things, regardless of whether we'll agree in the end.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I would immediately end a discussion if I were asked that question. If you want to dismiss me by trying to imply my opinion is driven by a want of something other than accuracy with reality, I can find other people to spend my time with.
- kmill 4y ago
  Where are you getting that they'd want to "dismiss you?" Smart and well-informed people can come to different interpretations of reality that are accurate in their own ways. It's interesting to know what sorts of consequences to such interpretations a person finds to be important for their worldview. Once we're talking about dismissing someone, we've long left the realm of good-faith discussion, which was assumed in the situation you're responding to.
  - ivalm 4y ago
    “why it is important to you that X is true?” implies subjectivism in the belief system. While I think belief systems are largely subjective some people think of them as objective and take offense on suggestions that their beliefs are “just” subjective.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      I have a close group of friends that consists of an athiest, an agnostic, a hindu, and 2 christians, and outside of 1 of those christians, we've all been friends for at least 13 years (1 of those relationships since 1994). No one had to ask the hindu why they got upset when the athiest came by and stood next to the statue of buddha chomping on a mcdonalds beef biscuit. The athiest didn't think about it, those two had a conversation afterwards, and they still get along just fine to this day (some 10 years later). This is NOT about beliefs being objective or not. That group of friends has lasted over the years due to a fundamental respect of each other as PEOPLE. Someone who asks that particular question lacks such respect and as such are not going to be given any headspace by me.