8 ms·

Then it shouldn't have been titled as so.

by bearon 4y ago

LeonB 4y ago
This is called a “rhetorical device” and you’d struggle to find a lengthy article that does not employ rhetorical devices. It’s a big part of how communication works.
- BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
  I wonder if there is a term for this kind of objection. I’m starting to see more and more people demand quantifiers or conditional disqualifiers on statements that shouldn’t reasonably be considered as absolutes. And, the fact that bringing up that whatever assertion is being made is not a universal absolute doesn’t really add anything to the understanding. Which statement is better, “people don’t like the smell of skunk spray” or “the vast majority of people do not like the smell of skunk spray”? The latter is more correct, as I am sure there is probably someone out there who is an outlier. But I can’t help but feel like my communication has been made less precise and has been made subject to interpretation as a result.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    I advocate for everyone to use basic declarative statements when they are not completely certain, with uncertainty left implied and up to the reader to figure out. If the writer is certain about something or wants to make an absolute statement, then that's when the verbosity comes into play. That's when the writer can start to add all the fluff words. That's a convention that's way better, because the large majority of statements and propositions aren't known with certainty. I am exhausted at having to read long winded prose with endless "maybe" "mostly" and so on, with the obligatory "we don't know this for sure" at the end. I don't come away thinking you're humble, I am just annoyed that you've wasted my time when it was blatantly obvious you were saying something not absolute.
    - BlueDingo 4y ago
      I hear you, but I'm also the type of person to admit my own uncertainty. And the people around me get way more uptake of their ideas by just leaving out those words, even when they have less or terrible foundations.
      - hackerlight 4y ago
        It's a cultural thing. The cultural norm in academic or technical circles is extreme precision as well as fear of being held to account by enforcers of that norm. It's a spillover of rigorous academic publishing norms into general conversation. It's a fool's errand given that speech is intrinsically imprecise, and given that everyday speech is just a communication tool and not a vehicle for perfect applied epistemology. We should hedge statements depending on whether the context makes it self-explanatory that there's uncertainty. Any less, and we're being deceptive. Any more, and we're adding words without adding information. You know what would be a cool? Some notation to denote the level of certainty that doesn't take up horizontal space in the sentence. Or an API to a fine tuned GPT-3 that can strip out caveats and hedges from text on a screen.
        maxbond 4y ago
        I know very little about it, but it's my understanding the conlang Láadan has ways to express degrees of certainty and degrees of "handedness" to the information (first-hand, etc). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1adan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1adan Check out the tenses, things like, "Known to speaker because perceived by speaker, externally or internally" vs "Assumed true by speaker because speaker trusts source". https://laadanlanguage.com https://laadanlanguage.com
  - watwut 4y ago
    Personally, I am glad that culture is moving away from rewarding confident certain statements that are simply untrue.
    - LeonB 4y ago
      Citation needed. Also - relevance? The tagline being questioned here is— “People don't change their minds” — the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that it requires qualification, e.g. in the prose of the linked article it’s written: “To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters”
      - watwut 4y ago
        > Citation needed. Citation for personal preference? Or for claim that currently confidence is rewarded more then accuracy? > the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that The statement is untrue, because people do change minds. People change minds also about stuff that matters. They dont do it often, but they do it.
        xapata 4y ago
        > is moving away I think the citation would be for "is moving away" as that's the most bold claim.
        watwut 4y ago
        That was the premise of the comment I reacted to. It says: I’m starting to see more and more people demand quantifiers or conditional disqualifiers on statements that shouldn’t reasonably be considered as absolutes. Seeing more and more people demand such qualifiers is culture moving away.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  What you call a "rhetorical device" I call clickbait, and frankly I'm getting tired of it. If the response to every title should be "You shouldn't judge us on the title, everyone knows titles are bullshit", then maybe folks should stop making bullshit titles, or else not feign innocence when they are judged on them. (Note I understand the submitted title is not the title of the article, which I think is a valid defense in this instance, but my general point still stands)
  - xapata 4y ago
    There's a difference between using a broadly true generalization as the title and using a bullshit statement as the title.
nagonago 4y ago
The actual title is "Adversarial Collaboration: An EDGE Lecture by Daniel Kahneman". "People don't change their minds" is just the tagline, and he doesn't even actually say it in the lecture. The focus is much more on adversarial collaboration and why he thinks it is a positive thing for science. ...does that change your mind? ;)
- lovelearning 4y ago
  Except he says things like: > To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters. > Let's start from the main domains where we know people don't change their minds — politics or religion. Perhaps people familiar with his work interpret his statements differently. It's also understandable if this was a lecture for peers. But I'm a layperson whose only context is this article and the things he says sound absolute. It's already an era of misinformation and low attention. We don't need content published in a way that may add to it. If there are conditions and nuances involved here, I think writers, especially scientists and professionals, and editors should include them and avoid saying anything that risks misinterpretation.
  - Lewton 4y ago
    How do you interpret “To a good first approximation” in this context?
hackerlight 4y ago
I disagree. What we need less of is endless caveats and hedges in writing that make it impenetrable for no added value. Leave it to the reader to exercise common sense. It's extremely obvious he didn't mean it as an absolute assertion.

Then it shouldn't have been titled as so.

by bearon 4y ago

Then it shouldn't have been titled as so.

This is called a “rhetorical device” and you’d struggle to find a lengthy article that does not employ rhetorical devices. It’s a big part of how communication works.

BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
I wonder if there is a term for this kind of objection. I’m starting to see more and more people demand quantifiers or conditional disqualifiers on statements that shouldn’t reasonably be considered as absolutes. And, the fact that bringing up that whatever assertion is being made is not a universal absolute doesn’t really add anything to the understanding. Which statement is better, “people don’t like the smell of skunk spray” or “the vast majority of people do not like the smell of skunk spray”? The latter is more correct, as I am sure there is probably someone out there who is an outlier. But I can’t help but feel like my communication has been made less precise and has been made subject to interpretation as a result.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  I advocate for everyone to use basic declarative statements when they are not completely certain, with uncertainty left implied and up to the reader to figure out. If the writer is certain about something or wants to make an absolute statement, then that's when the verbosity comes into play. That's when the writer can start to add all the fluff words. That's a convention that's way better, because the large majority of statements and propositions aren't known with certainty. I am exhausted at having to read long winded prose with endless "maybe" "mostly" and so on, with the obligatory "we don't know this for sure" at the end. I don't come away thinking you're humble, I am just annoyed that you've wasted my time when it was blatantly obvious you were saying something not absolute.
  - BlueDingo 4y ago
    I hear you, but I'm also the type of person to admit my own uncertainty. And the people around me get way more uptake of their ideas by just leaving out those words, even when they have less or terrible foundations.
    - hackerlight 4y ago
      It's a cultural thing. The cultural norm in academic or technical circles is extreme precision as well as fear of being held to account by enforcers of that norm. It's a spillover of rigorous academic publishing norms into general conversation. It's a fool's errand given that speech is intrinsically imprecise, and given that everyday speech is just a communication tool and not a vehicle for perfect applied epistemology. We should hedge statements depending on whether the context makes it self-explanatory that there's uncertainty. Any less, and we're being deceptive. Any more, and we're adding words without adding information. You know what would be a cool? Some notation to denote the level of certainty that doesn't take up horizontal space in the sentence. Or an API to a fine tuned GPT-3 that can strip out caveats and hedges from text on a screen.
      - maxbond 4y ago
        I know very little about it, but it's my understanding the conlang Láadan has ways to express degrees of certainty and degrees of "handedness" to the information (first-hand, etc). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1adan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1adan Check out the tenses, things like, "Known to speaker because perceived by speaker, externally or internally" vs "Assumed true by speaker because speaker trusts source". https://laadanlanguage.com https://laadanlanguage.com
- watwut 4y ago
  Personally, I am glad that culture is moving away from rewarding confident certain statements that are simply untrue.
  - LeonB 4y ago
    Citation needed. Also - relevance? The tagline being questioned here is— “People don't change their minds” — the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that it requires qualification, e.g. in the prose of the linked article it’s written: “To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters”
    - watwut 4y ago
      > Citation needed. Citation for personal preference? Or for claim that currently confidence is rewarded more then accuracy? > the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that The statement is untrue, because people do change minds. People change minds also about stuff that matters. They dont do it often, but they do it.
      - xapata 4y ago
        > is moving away I think the citation would be for "is moving away" as that's the most bold claim.
        watwut 4y ago
        That was the premise of the comment I reacted to. It says: I’m starting to see more and more people demand quantifiers or conditional disqualifiers on statements that shouldn’t reasonably be considered as absolutes. Seeing more and more people demand such qualifiers is culture moving away.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
What you call a "rhetorical device" I call clickbait, and frankly I'm getting tired of it. If the response to every title should be "You shouldn't judge us on the title, everyone knows titles are bullshit", then maybe folks should stop making bullshit titles, or else not feign innocence when they are judged on them. (Note I understand the submitted title is not the title of the article, which I think is a valid defense in this instance, but my general point still stands)
- xapata 4y ago
  There's a difference between using a broadly true generalization as the title and using a bullshit statement as the title.

nagonago 4y ago

The actual title is "Adversarial Collaboration: An EDGE Lecture by Daniel Kahneman". "People don't change their minds" is just the tagline, and he doesn't even actually say it in the lecture. The focus is much more on adversarial collaboration and why he thinks it is a positive thing for science. ...does that change your mind? ;)

lovelearning 4y ago
Except he says things like: > To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters. > Let's start from the main domains where we know people don't change their minds — politics or religion. Perhaps people familiar with his work interpret his statements differently. It's also understandable if this was a lecture for peers. But I'm a layperson whose only context is this article and the things he says sound absolute. It's already an era of misinformation and low attention. We don't need content published in a way that may add to it. If there are conditions and nuances involved here, I think writers, especially scientists and professionals, and editors should include them and avoid saying anything that risks misinterpretation.
- Lewton 4y ago
  How do you interpret “To a good first approximation” in this context?

hackerlight 4y ago

I disagree. What we need less of is endless caveats and hedges in writing that make it impenetrable for no added value. Leave it to the reader to exercise common sense. It's extremely obvious he didn't mean it as an absolute assertion.