5 ms·

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Why would that be considered the first day of Fall? Even taking a purely astronomical perspective, the autumnal equinox would be the center of Fall, not the beginning.
- samatman 4y ago
  As a not-at-all neutral observation, you post an enormous amount, are obnoxious in your confidence, and frequently wrong.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    This seems a bit mean, especially given its a pretty natural question as to why the equinox is considered start of fall instead of midautumn (in certain regions) Edit: i take it back.
- bawolff 4y ago
  Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_lag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_lag
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    Yes, from a seasonal perspective, the timing of a season varies idiosyncratically from place to place. That was the first thing I said. Why would you then want to locate the beginning of Fall on the equinox? Quoting from your link: > seasonal lag is not "seasonally symmetric"; that is, the period between the winter solstice and thermal midwinter (coldest time) is not the same as between the summer solstice and thermal midsummer (hottest time). > In mid-latitude continental climates, [seasonal lag] is approximately 20–25 days in winter and 25–35 days in summer. > there is no meteorological reason for designating these dates as the first days of their respective seasons.
    - bawolff 4y ago
      You asked why it is traditionally known as that, and i answered.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        Not only did I not ask that, I don't believe that the equinox is traditionally known as the beginning of autumn. Traditional terminology always marks the solstices and equinoxes as the middle of the season in which they occur, because that is obviously the way seasons work. Compare Western European "Midsummer" [the solstice] or Chinese 立秋 ["beginning of Fall", August 8; compare to the equinox on September 23, or to the "Mid-Autumn Festival" 中秋节, fixed to the full moon, but generally around late September]. The equinoxes and the solstices are marked on modern calendars as the beginning of their respective seasons, but I have never heard anyone attempt to justify that. I tend to assume it's the result of the calendar-buying population not having any reason to care what season it currently is. But even among modern calendar-buying people, I believe they think of big snowdrifts as something that happens in winter, not something that happens in late fall and continues through winter. And the calendar doesn't agree with that.
  - GoblinSlayer 4y ago
    So is it astronomical season or weather season? Weather varies between locations.
- mcv 4y ago
  Spring and autumn start on the equinox, summer and winter on the solstices. Though it's true they tend to be called "mid summer" and "mid winter" day. It's certainly weird. We also tend to associate summer with days getting longer and winter with days (the period between sunrise and sunset) getting shorter, but the opposite is true: in summer, which is the period from about 21 June to 23 September, days are getting shorter, whereas in winter, between 21 December and 21 March, days are getting longer. Astronomical winter starts on the shortest day, and astronomical summer on the longest day. I guess we're just eternally confused about calendars. And who can blame us?
  - collinmanderson 4y ago
    Technically days get longer (hours of daylight) during the winter and shorter during the summer.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > Astronomical winter starts on the shortest day, and astronomical summer on the longest day. This is a convention used only by modern calendars. Astronomers have no opinion on when particular seasons occur. They care about things like when stars rise above or sink below the horizon. But they don't use the change in the sky to determine when winter occurs. People notice that winter occurs around the same time every year, and they associate whatever the sky is doing at that time with the beginning of winter. As you already note, the solstices are called "midsummer" and "midwinter". That is because they are traditionally identified as the middle of summer and the middle of winter. Why do you believe that they are the beginning instead?
    - mcv 4y ago
      "Believe"? It's the common definition. Belief has nothing to do with it.
      - thaumasiotes 4y ago
        That doesn't come close to being true. Compare the Cambridge dictionary's "common definition": > [summer] the season of the year between spring and autumn when the weather is warmest, lasting from June to September north of the equator and from December to March south of the equator Wikipedia: > Summer is the hottest of the four temperate seasons, occurring after spring and before autumn. At or centred on the summer solstice, the earliest sunrise and latest sunset occurs, daylight hours are longest and dark hours are shortest, with day length decreasing as the season progresses after the solstice. The date of the beginning of summer varies according to climate, tradition, and culture. > From an astronomical view, the equinoxes and solstices would be the middle of the respective seasons, but sometimes astronomical summer is defined as starting at the solstice, the time of maximal insolation, often identified with the 21st day of June or December. By solar reckoning, summer instead starts on May Day and the summer solstice is Midsummer.

Why would that be considered the first day of Fall? Even taking a purely astronomical perspective, the autumnal equinox would be the center of Fall, not the beginning.

samatman 4y ago
As a not-at-all neutral observation, you post an enormous amount, are obnoxious in your confidence, and frequently wrong.
- bawolff 4y ago
  This seems a bit mean, especially given its a pretty natural question as to why the equinox is considered start of fall instead of midautumn (in certain regions) Edit: i take it back.
bawolff 4y ago
Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_lag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_lag
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Yes, from a seasonal perspective, the timing of a season varies idiosyncratically from place to place. That was the first thing I said. Why would you then want to locate the beginning of Fall on the equinox? Quoting from your link: > seasonal lag is not "seasonally symmetric"; that is, the period between the winter solstice and thermal midwinter (coldest time) is not the same as between the summer solstice and thermal midsummer (hottest time). > In mid-latitude continental climates, [seasonal lag] is approximately 20–25 days in winter and 25–35 days in summer. > there is no meteorological reason for designating these dates as the first days of their respective seasons.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    You asked why it is traditionally known as that, and i answered.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      Not only did I not ask that, I don't believe that the equinox is traditionally known as the beginning of autumn. Traditional terminology always marks the solstices and equinoxes as the middle of the season in which they occur, because that is obviously the way seasons work. Compare Western European "Midsummer" [the solstice] or Chinese 立秋 ["beginning of Fall", August 8; compare to the equinox on September 23, or to the "Mid-Autumn Festival" 中秋节, fixed to the full moon, but generally around late September]. The equinoxes and the solstices are marked on modern calendars as the beginning of their respective seasons, but I have never heard anyone attempt to justify that. I tend to assume it's the result of the calendar-buying population not having any reason to care what season it currently is. But even among modern calendar-buying people, I believe they think of big snowdrifts as something that happens in winter, not something that happens in late fall and continues through winter. And the calendar doesn't agree with that.
- GoblinSlayer 4y ago
  So is it astronomical season or weather season? Weather varies between locations.
mcv 4y ago
Spring and autumn start on the equinox, summer and winter on the solstices. Though it's true they tend to be called "mid summer" and "mid winter" day. It's certainly weird. We also tend to associate summer with days getting longer and winter with days (the period between sunrise and sunset) getting shorter, but the opposite is true: in summer, which is the period from about 21 June to 23 September, days are getting shorter, whereas in winter, between 21 December and 21 March, days are getting longer. Astronomical winter starts on the shortest day, and astronomical summer on the longest day. I guess we're just eternally confused about calendars. And who can blame us?
- collinmanderson 4y ago
  Technically days get longer (hours of daylight) during the winter and shorter during the summer.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > Astronomical winter starts on the shortest day, and astronomical summer on the longest day. This is a convention used only by modern calendars. Astronomers have no opinion on when particular seasons occur. They care about things like when stars rise above or sink below the horizon. But they don't use the change in the sky to determine when winter occurs. People notice that winter occurs around the same time every year, and they associate whatever the sky is doing at that time with the beginning of winter. As you already note, the solstices are called "midsummer" and "midwinter". That is because they are traditionally identified as the middle of summer and the middle of winter. Why do you believe that they are the beginning instead?
  - mcv 4y ago
    "Believe"? It's the common definition. Belief has nothing to do with it.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      That doesn't come close to being true. Compare the Cambridge dictionary's "common definition": > [summer] the season of the year between spring and autumn when the weather is warmest, lasting from June to September north of the equator and from December to March south of the equator Wikipedia: > Summer is the hottest of the four temperate seasons, occurring after spring and before autumn. At or centred on the summer solstice, the earliest sunrise and latest sunset occurs, daylight hours are longest and dark hours are shortest, with day length decreasing as the season progresses after the solstice. The date of the beginning of summer varies according to climate, tradition, and culture. > From an astronomical view, the equinoxes and solstices would be the middle of the respective seasons, but sometimes astronomical summer is defined as starting at the solstice, the time of maximal insolation, often identified with the 21st day of June or December. By solar reckoning, summer instead starts on May Day and the summer solstice is Midsummer.