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Job hopping has a high ROI early in one’s career, but becomes a negative ROI in the later years. In the first few years after college it’s not a big deal to ch

Job hopping has a high ROI early in one’s career, but becomes a negative ROI in the later years. In the first few years after college it’s not a big deal to change companies several times in short succession because you’re not really a key player in an organization. Once you reach the leadership and middle management roles, job hopping means you’re never really staying at a company long enough to establish yourself and to own the long-term consequences of your actions. It’s very easy to come in, make a mess, and then leave before any consequences catch up to you. It’s much harder to stay and own things for 3 year or more. > Also a good callout that this is extra true for senior roles where it will be more complicated to replace a short-tenured leader. Well said. It’s not a big deal if one of several similarly qualified developers rotates out of a team. It is a bigger deal if your teams have a new leader every 12 months because you hired people who can’t stay in one place very long. Even as an employee it gets painful and worrisome when management is changing over frequently and nobody really knows why. How many times have we seen “Ask HN” posts where people complain that they’ve had a new manager every 12 months and everyone comments that it’s a red flag? As a company, you can’t afford to hire flakey senior leaders and managers who have a history of disappearing the second someone offers them a slightly higher salary. Keep them compensated, of course, but there will always be recruiters hunting for someone willing to jump ship in exchange for a $10K signing bonus.

vlovich123 4y ago
That’s interesting advice that I haven’t seen out play that way in my experience. In very senior roles at big tech companies, even staying in the same role provides 0 guarantee you’re working on the same project or even that the project you start lasts 3 years. Also, the difference isn’t 10k. It’s hundreds of thousands of dollars at middling levels. It’s in the seven figures at the upper levels.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  From a job hopping POV, projects or roles don't count, it's all about how long you've worked at the same company. My current tenure at giant company X is "10 years", even though I've held at least 4 radically different roles across three different products during that time.
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    The context for my statement there was this: > job hopping means you’re never really staying at a company long enough to establish yourself and to own the long-term consequences of your actions If you’re project hopping then you’re not owning long-term consequences either.
- wucaworld 4y ago
  I’m someone who stayed put. Same company for 7 years. Not fang. Got promoted to be a manager half way. I stayed put as it was awesome learning for me. I sucked my first year and yet felt was able to demonstrate value due to momentum from my previous impact. I am getting better at leadership and finding my skin. But .. in retrospect, I left a lot of money on the table. I also don’t see myself making the next jump (to vp) as I have seen no one do it .. vps come from outside where I am. I am mulling an mba or emba but it is pretty expensive in time and money.
  - beckingz 4y ago
    Sounds like it's time to quit your job and find a new one.
    - wucaworld 4y ago
      Not with a recession looming, as the article points out. I’d be interested in upskilling suggestions that are smaller sized chunks. Online nano degrees seem to be too watered down to take seriously. Need to position self for late 2023.
  - ebiester 4y ago
    Even in a downturn, you should look for good opportunities to move. The second management job is where you really start learning. But be really picky.
  - racking7 4y ago
    Just read the MBA/Founder books instead of getting an MBA. Find a new job where you'll be challenged and can put the MBA/Founder skills to use, then quit your current job.
saiya-jin 4y ago
In Europe, its even a bit more. Early hopping is fine/explainable, I've personally only profited tremendously by doing it in first 6 years (increased my net income 20x compared to first full time job, but I started really low and and gradually moved to best paying region in Europe). But even at those 5-6 years recruiters/hiring managers start to notice, you better have some good story to explain since they will ask. They do care much more if hopping is recent compared to 5-10 years ago. For more senior roles its simply a no-go, I mean think about it - it would be a net loss for the company to hire such a person, and if its obvious from the start why cause this to yourself. Companies want stability, especially on senior level. If they change, they want to be in control of the change and not the opposite. Instable persons won't bring that, you don't need 30 years of management experience to realize this.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mprovost 4y ago
  Senior level positions in Europe often come with a 6 month notice period, so it's not even really possible to job hob that often. There is a strong preference for stability and continuity of leadership.
- Vibgyor5 4y ago
  I'm actually experiencing this and feeling very down especially as a non-European targeting roles in Europe and remote roles. My career trajectory after undergrad: 4 months: Project manager at a bank. Management development program that I left to join a startup in Berlin. 5 months, internship: promising startup in Berlin that I joined as intern. Founder passed away so the company almost went down under and they couldn't support me with visa. 1 year: Well-known German startup, notable turnkey projects. Left to home country due to family issues (closer to ageing relatives) 2 years 8 months: Rising Asian unicorn, notable turnkey projects, some good impact here. Left after a while to switch industry 3 months: Remote role at a US-based startup. Loved the time here and was actually able to scale a program. Laid-off along with half of the company due to investor pulling funds. There are reasons behind every move. But this is not immediately evident to a recruiter and raises questions, more so in this market. Now I'm job-searching while simultaneously freelance consulting on the side but as a generalist, non-tech, I'm somewhat jaded with job-hopping and want to aim for longer run at a stable company.
LtWorf 4y ago
> Once you reach the leadership and middle management roles, job hopping means you’re never really staying at a company long enough to establish yourself and to own the long-term consequences of your actions. It’s very easy to come in, make a mess, and then leave before any consequences catch up to you. It’s much harder to stay and own things for 3 year or more. Isn't this what the top managers do? Seems to work for them.
Invictus0 4y ago
I think this is overly dismissive. No one in a managerial role is switching jobs for a 10k signing bonus. Companies need to stop scratching their heads about why their talent keeps leaving and just fucking pay them more.

vlovich123 4y ago

That’s interesting advice that I haven’t seen out play that way in my experience. In very senior roles at big tech companies, even staying in the same role provides 0 guarantee you’re working on the same project or even that the project you start lasts 3 years. Also, the difference isn’t 10k. It’s hundreds of thousands of dollars at middling levels. It’s in the seven figures at the upper levels.

rippercushions 4y ago
From a job hopping POV, projects or roles don't count, it's all about how long you've worked at the same company. My current tenure at giant company X is "10 years", even though I've held at least 4 radically different roles across three different products during that time.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  The context for my statement there was this: > job hopping means you’re never really staying at a company long enough to establish yourself and to own the long-term consequences of your actions If you’re project hopping then you’re not owning long-term consequences either.
wucaworld 4y ago
I’m someone who stayed put. Same company for 7 years. Not fang. Got promoted to be a manager half way. I stayed put as it was awesome learning for me. I sucked my first year and yet felt was able to demonstrate value due to momentum from my previous impact. I am getting better at leadership and finding my skin. But .. in retrospect, I left a lot of money on the table. I also don’t see myself making the next jump (to vp) as I have seen no one do it .. vps come from outside where I am. I am mulling an mba or emba but it is pretty expensive in time and money.
- beckingz 4y ago
  Sounds like it's time to quit your job and find a new one.
  - wucaworld 4y ago
    Not with a recession looming, as the article points out. I’d be interested in upskilling suggestions that are smaller sized chunks. Online nano degrees seem to be too watered down to take seriously. Need to position self for late 2023.
- ebiester 4y ago
  Even in a downturn, you should look for good opportunities to move. The second management job is where you really start learning. But be really picky.
- racking7 4y ago
  Just read the MBA/Founder books instead of getting an MBA. Find a new job where you'll be challenged and can put the MBA/Founder skills to use, then quit your current job.

saiya-jin 4y ago

In Europe, its even a bit more. Early hopping is fine/explainable, I've personally only profited tremendously by doing it in first 6 years (increased my net income 20x compared to first full time job, but I started really low and and gradually moved to best paying region in Europe). But even at those 5-6 years recruiters/hiring managers start to notice, you better have some good story to explain since they will ask. They do care much more if hopping is recent compared to 5-10 years ago. For more senior roles its simply a no-go, I mean think about it - it would be a net loss for the company to hire such a person, and if its obvious from the start why cause this to yourself. Companies want stability, especially on senior level. If they change, they want to be in control of the change and not the opposite. Instable persons won't bring that, you don't need 30 years of management experience to realize this.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mprovost 4y ago
Senior level positions in Europe often come with a 6 month notice period, so it's not even really possible to job hob that often. There is a strong preference for stability and continuity of leadership.
Vibgyor5 4y ago
I'm actually experiencing this and feeling very down especially as a non-European targeting roles in Europe and remote roles. My career trajectory after undergrad: 4 months: Project manager at a bank. Management development program that I left to join a startup in Berlin. 5 months, internship: promising startup in Berlin that I joined as intern. Founder passed away so the company almost went down under and they couldn't support me with visa. 1 year: Well-known German startup, notable turnkey projects. Left to home country due to family issues (closer to ageing relatives) 2 years 8 months: Rising Asian unicorn, notable turnkey projects, some good impact here. Left after a while to switch industry 3 months: Remote role at a US-based startup. Loved the time here and was actually able to scale a program. Laid-off along with half of the company due to investor pulling funds. There are reasons behind every move. But this is not immediately evident to a recruiter and raises questions, more so in this market. Now I'm job-searching while simultaneously freelance consulting on the side but as a generalist, non-tech, I'm somewhat jaded with job-hopping and want to aim for longer run at a stable company.

LtWorf 4y ago

> Once you reach the leadership and middle management roles, job hopping means you’re never really staying at a company long enough to establish yourself and to own the long-term consequences of your actions. It’s very easy to come in, make a mess, and then leave before any consequences catch up to you. It’s much harder to stay and own things for 3 year or more. Isn't this what the top managers do? Seems to work for them.

Invictus0 4y ago

I think this is overly dismissive. No one in a managerial role is switching jobs for a 10k signing bonus. Companies need to stop scratching their heads about why their talent keeps leaving and just fucking pay them more.