3 ms·

The thing that would've brought it around for me is a punchline where the alien says something like "wow, your system is so clean and simple compared to ours".

The thing that would've brought it around for me is a punchline where the alien says something like "wow, your system is so clean and simple compared to ours". I do think there's a certain degree of humor when looking back at history. There are plenty of things to laugh at in hindsight. But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow a distinctly human trait or inherently a bad thing. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. And to those complaining that we should just have fun with this, I get it. There's some funny stuff in there. But that shouldn't absolve the thread of criticism. It's fair to point out that it's a pretty reductionist take when combined with the implication that humans are uniquely stupid. It's an easy problem to solve with a very slight reframing. $0.02.

Sebb767 4y ago
> But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow some distinctly human trait. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. Well, to be fair, we really don't know that - we don't have another advanced civilization to compare us to. But I fully agree, our system might have some legacy cruft, but it works surprisingly well. Joel Spolkys wise words on rewrites also apply to our calendar.
origin_path 4y ago
There's also a bunch of less subtle assumptions, like the obviousness of base 10. That comes from us having ten fingers, right? It's easy to imagine aliens having six fingers on each hand and then assuming that base 12 is the most obvious and logical base to use for everything.
- avar 4y ago
  There's no reason to suppose that an intelligent alien race would find it convenient to count things in base that matches the number of "fingers" they have, if they even have such a thing. Whales aren't far from being intelligent enough to form a technical civilization, but their body plan makes it unlikely that they'd use their "fingers" (or fins) to count, or to communicate with other whales. Even if you gave an alien two human hands and knew that their counting system's base was derived from physical features of their "hands" it's not obvious that they'd come up with either base-5 or base-10 if they where starting from first principles. We have 3 joints that make up our fingers, but the "base 10" assumes we only use one of those. It's not obvious that even a close relative to humans wouldn't come up with base-20 or base-30 just from counting using their fingers. If you straighten or bend your wrist to add an "extra" finger for counting you're now counting in base-6 on one hand, base-12 on both. Do the same with your elbow joint and you're base-7 and base-14, respectively.
  - syrrim 4y ago
    Without fingers to manipulate ones environment, it would be incredibly difficult to develop any sort of technology.
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    Not even humans always chose the exact mechanism current day westerners are familiar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting
  - origin_path 4y ago
    Yes, all granted, but I think the point is that without fingers tool use is hard, without tool use flying to other planets is hard, and we selected base 10 as the default despite its disadvantages, primarily because of our biology (unless there's some other advantage to base 10 I'm missing?). To assume aliens wouldn't have fingers or do the same thing seems like the odd assumption. Whales are nowhere even close to creating technical civilization, that's really left field. Dolphins at least occasionally do use tools, I think, but without fingers they have to use their nose for everything and it really limits them.
  - otikik 4y ago
    I think the reason whole fingers was picked over joints or phalanges is because when humans started counting stuff the probability of someone having missing a whole finger or two was higher than now (The life of a hunter-gatherer, accidents happen). When you are missing a finger you can still use your "stumps" to count in base-10, but your ability to count using joints or phalanges is impaired.
antifa 4y ago
Their calendar could be updated for interplanetary use.

Sebb767 4y ago

> But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow some distinctly human trait. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. Well, to be fair, we really don't know that - we don't have another advanced civilization to compare us to. But I fully agree, our system might have some legacy cruft, but it works surprisingly well. Joel Spolkys wise words on rewrites also apply to our calendar.

origin_path 4y ago

There's also a bunch of less subtle assumptions, like the obviousness of base 10. That comes from us having ten fingers, right? It's easy to imagine aliens having six fingers on each hand and then assuming that base 12 is the most obvious and logical base to use for everything.

avar 4y ago
There's no reason to suppose that an intelligent alien race would find it convenient to count things in base that matches the number of "fingers" they have, if they even have such a thing. Whales aren't far from being intelligent enough to form a technical civilization, but their body plan makes it unlikely that they'd use their "fingers" (or fins) to count, or to communicate with other whales. Even if you gave an alien two human hands and knew that their counting system's base was derived from physical features of their "hands" it's not obvious that they'd come up with either base-5 or base-10 if they where starting from first principles. We have 3 joints that make up our fingers, but the "base 10" assumes we only use one of those. It's not obvious that even a close relative to humans wouldn't come up with base-20 or base-30 just from counting using their fingers. If you straighten or bend your wrist to add an "extra" finger for counting you're now counting in base-6 on one hand, base-12 on both. Do the same with your elbow joint and you're base-7 and base-14, respectively.
- syrrim 4y ago
  Without fingers to manipulate ones environment, it would be incredibly difficult to develop any sort of technology.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  Not even humans always chose the exact mechanism current day westerners are familiar with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-counting
- origin_path 4y ago
  Yes, all granted, but I think the point is that without fingers tool use is hard, without tool use flying to other planets is hard, and we selected base 10 as the default despite its disadvantages, primarily because of our biology (unless there's some other advantage to base 10 I'm missing?). To assume aliens wouldn't have fingers or do the same thing seems like the odd assumption. Whales are nowhere even close to creating technical civilization, that's really left field. Dolphins at least occasionally do use tools, I think, but without fingers they have to use their nose for everything and it really limits them.
- otikik 4y ago
  I think the reason whole fingers was picked over joints or phalanges is because when humans started counting stuff the probability of someone having missing a whole finger or two was higher than now (The life of a hunter-gatherer, accidents happen). When you are missing a finger you can still use your "stumps" to count in base-10, but your ability to count using joints or phalanges is impaired.

antifa 4y ago

Their calendar could be updated for interplanetary use.