9 ms·

As someone with significant experience of using the rail networks in both the UK and Spain, I strongly agree with the last point regarding the hybrid reservatio

As someone with significant experience of using the rail networks in both the UK and Spain, I strongly agree with the last point regarding the hybrid reservation model. In addition, there's one further point which I don't think he mentions: the fact that in the UK you can buy a ticket at any station to go to any arbitrary station A from any arbitrary station B (notwithstanding the complexity of determining the best price). In Spain, by contrast, you simply cannot get a train ticket for the long distance network if you're at a commuter station, nor can you get a ticket to cover a route between two arbitrary stations if the route would combine long- and short-distance trains. You need to buy long distance and regional tickets separately, and cannot buy tickets for commuter services from outside the specific region. And they are all run by the same state-owned operator Renfe! Meanwhile, in the UK, you can go to Stalybridge on the outskirts of Manchester and ask the ticket office for a return ticket from Edinburgh Haymarket to Bury St Edmunds and they won't bat an eyelid even though it covers God knows how many potential operators. Note this is not in any way an example of the UK system being superior due to privatisation. The reason it works this well is because it already worked like that under British Rail.

lol768 4y ago
> the fact that in the UK you can buy a ticket at any station to go to any arbitrary station A from any arbitrary station B (notwithstanding the complexity of determining the best price). Mostly true, but not universally so - try Denton -> Manchester Piccadilly ;) </pedantry>
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Denton to Manchester Piccadilly: http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/manchester/08:45/saturday http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/manchester/08:45/saturday -- the train only runs twice a week, on Saturdays. Although going outside Northern Trains' area does indeed seem to prevent fares being calculated: http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/deal/08:45/2022-10-22 http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/deal/08:45/2022-10-22
- jefftk 4y ago
  For those of us less familiar with the British rail network: why would Denton to Manchester Piccadilly be a challenge to book a ticket for?
  - pmyteh 4y ago
    There's no fare set for that pair of stations specifically[0], so no way of buying a ticket. You could get one to Stockport and another from Stockport to Manchester, but that's obviously not quite the 'any station to any other station' mentioned. There may also be some kind of Manchester all-area ticket that's valid, but again that adds a knowledge requirement. (Denton is mildly famous amongst British rail enthusiasts as it has a 'parliamentary'[1] service of one train a week each way. Useless for actual travel, but (partly because of an unusually pleasant station buffet with good beer at Stalybridge) the regular site of meetups for rail geeks). [0]: https://www.brfares.com/!!expert?orig=DTN&dest=MAN https://www.brfares.com/!!expert?orig=DTN&dest=MAN [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train
nicoburns 4y ago
> Meanwhile, in the UK, you can go to Stalybridge on the outskirts of Manchester and ask the ticket office for a return ticket from Edinburgh Haymarket to Bury St Edmunds and they won't bat an eyelid even though it covers God knows how many potential operators. You can even get a ticket to Ryde, Isle of Wight and get the Ferry ticket included too.
- mnd999 4y ago
  That also works for Dublin believe it or not.
  - lmm 4y ago
    You certainly can't just order those at an arbitrary station, and I think that ticket might actually have been abolished entirely.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      http://traintimes.org.uk/CTR/DCL/14:30/today http://traintimes.org.uk/CTR/DCL/14:30/today I'm fairly sure you can buy this from any station in Britain, at least if it has a ticket office or machines.
nextos 4y ago
The problem is usually price and reliability. You can commute Segovia - Madrid Chamartin on a high speed train (95 km, 27 min, 200 euro per month). Reliability and price are top notch. A comparable commute is Cambridge - London (60 mi, 65 min, 500-600 pound per month depending on some details). I have used both, and there is no contest, sadly.
- matt-p 4y ago
  To be honest, I don't think that's a very fair comparison time:distance wise. Cambridge is infamously time consuming to get to by train and that's a very good route in Spain, they are not all that quick. For example Peterborough which is quite some miles north of Cambridge runs trains to London in 51 mins. What about Milton Keynes > London in 34 mins, Reading > London in 30 mins and so on.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    > Cambridge is infamously time consuming to get to by train Why is this? I know the story about the University insisting that the station be far from the center of town to make it inconvenient for students, and that Peterborough is on the ECML, but I don't see good reasons for Cambridge being hard to get to. There are direct express trains! It's not the North where everyone's trundling around in Pacers.
    - matt-p 4y ago
      I suppose it depends on what your definition of express is, what you're used to and so on. I think most people in that part of the country equate express to 125mph trains, that are either direct or 'more or less' direct.. which places like Milton Keynes and Peterborough do have. I think the reasons are mix of the two above you mention. No ecml which for what can only be described as a decent economic hub is a missed opportunity. Train station a bit of a pain to get to which extends real life journey times, although they are clearly trying to improve that and Cambridge North isn't bad.
      - 4y ago
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
Meanwhile in Japan (Tokyo at least) the red, blue, green, whatever lines aren’t even the same companies and good luck foreigner!
- masklinn 4y ago
  IME it’s completely transparent. You load up your suica and you’re off. The issue’s it’s a bit too transparent: and after a while you realise that your suica is emptying unexpectedly fast, because you’re paying (and resetting your trip counter) every time you pass a gate, and that you probably shouldn’t blindly follow western trip system because you want to limit network switches, at which point you run into the issue that the resources for that are mostly in Japanese. Then it depends how much the overhead is and how much you care.
  - karaokeyoga 4y ago
    Google Maps shows us the total trip cost – I'm assuming that's reliable.
- 4dregress 4y ago
  JR Pass is the answer for this! The JR Pass is awesome! https://www.jrpass.com/ https://www.jrpass.com/
  - kochikame 4y ago
    No, the existence of the JR pass exactly proves their point. It only works on JR lines, so in Tokyo you still need to buy tickets for all the private train lines and metro lines (city run and private run). Try getting around Tokyo on the daily using only JR lines; it won't be too much fun for you. JR pass is only really useful for long-haul, intercity type journeys, primarily by shinkansen
    - masklinn 4y ago
      If you’re in Tokyo you get a suica. It works on all lines, and can also be used as a payment card at various vending machines and shops (including I think all the big combini brands and many marts).
pjc50 4y ago
Hmm. Have you tried buying Spanish tickets on thetrainline? (For a while in the early 2000s the best way to buy UK train tickets was through the Deutsche Bahn website; exogenous ticketing is weird, but presumably they've already done the API work to simplify it for you)
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  > Hmm. Have you tried buying Spanish tickets on thetrainline? I've given it a go, but on my phone TheTrainLine is returning "unavailable" on literally any journey for some reason (my radical ad-and-tracker blocking?). I was trying to search for tickets from Cervera—served by regional trains from Barcelona and Lleida—to Torrijos—served by regional trains from Madrid. If TheTrainLine works for you maybe you can try Cervera-Torrijos. Best case, I'm guessing it might be able to suggest a reasonable combination (regional to Lleida -> high speed to Madrid -> regional to Torrijos) but I'd be very surprised if it can directly sell you any ticket except the Lleida-Madrid one, let alone the whole route as a single ticket. EDIT: I finally got TheTrainLine working, and it suggested me an odd bus journey from Cervera rather than the train. So, I decided to check, and in fact TheTrainLine is fully unaware of commuter and regional services around Barcelona or Madrid, and erroneously states "No tickets available" even when searching for routes which I take often. This is almost as bad as Renfe's own website, but at least TheTrainLine includes (some) 3rd party bus services.
martopix 4y ago
I came here to say something of this sort too. I have experience trying to buy international train tickets around Europe, and it's very often a big mess. Prices are different on different websites, they won't sell you regional trains, etc. The EU should intervene and make it easier.
- Bayart 4y ago
  > The EU should intervene and make it easier. They're about to. National train operators were mandated to find a solution to homogenize booking but it's getting nowhere.
  - martopix 4y ago
    Thank you, do you have a link with more info on the plan?
    - Bayart 4y ago
      Here's some info on the action plan : https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news/action-plan-boost-passenger-rail-2021-12-14_en https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news/action-plan-boost-passen...
arcen 4y ago
Frankly, that pales to what we have here in The Netherlands. A single OV-chipkaart swipe and you can take an NS train to wherever you want without needing to reserve seats and pre-book tickets. When I was in UK I didn't understand why the need for so much complexity when they could make it work like London metro (swipe in/out with a card). Needless to say I am not a fan of the UK system. edit: grammar
- superhuzza 4y ago
  Wouldn't work because you could complete the same trip via a range of different companies. So to keep track, you'd need to be tapping in/off each train so the operators could charge you accordingly. And then you'd never have an idea of what the price would be, as fares change according to how early you book and how busy the trains are. I'm not saying it's a good system - it's a very bad one, having it split between so many companies is a mistake. But the London metro is not a good analogy since it is all one company.
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  As implemented, the OV chipkaart has its own share of problems. 1. For railway travel, you need to top up a minimum balance of 20 € (okay, technically 16 €, because with an anonymous card you're allowed 4 € of credit), which is already a bit on the high side if you're only need to go a few stations by train and are only travelling occasionally. 2. Changing trains has become a bit more complicated, because if the change of trains also coincides with a change of the train operator you now always have to check out and back in again (and the check out/in procedure also potentially makes things more expensive than a true through ticket). 3. Certain offers (including e.g. reduced fares for children!) are only available with a personal chipkaart – for a long time those were impossible to obtain without a Dutch address of residence and/or bank account. These days they're also sold to residents of Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany, but you still have to order them in advance, and everybody else is still left out (e.g. somebody from Lille is actually closer to the Dutch border than somebody living in Munich, but only the latter is allowed to buy a personal chipkaart).
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  The Netherlands is a small country though. Reservations are not needed because you're expected to stand if the train is fully occupied. Travel journey is rarely longer than an hour. The Dutch railway system is more like a giant metro/light rail. Trains between the major cities have a high frequency of every 10 minutes.
iggldiggl 4y ago
Very much this. In Germany the law regulating railway demands that all train companies work together in creating through-fares, but in practice as far as long distance trains are concerned that obligation seems to have been forgotten and we're only saved by the fact that only a small minority of those trains are operated by TOCs other than DB.
cobaltoxide 4y ago
Deutsche Bahn's trip planner at https://www.bahn.com/en https://www.bahn.com/en is fun to play with. I just tried asking for a journey from London to Sofia (Bulgaria) and it finds one instantly. Although it appears DB can't sell a ticket for the route.

lol768 4y ago

> the fact that in the UK you can buy a ticket at any station to go to any arbitrary station A from any arbitrary station B (notwithstanding the complexity of determining the best price). Mostly true, but not universally so - try Denton -> Manchester Piccadilly ;) </pedantry>

Symbiote 4y ago
Denton to Manchester Piccadilly: http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/manchester/08:45/saturday http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/manchester/08:45/saturday -- the train only runs twice a week, on Saturdays. Although going outside Northern Trains' area does indeed seem to prevent fares being calculated: http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/deal/08:45/2022-10-22 http://traintimes.org.uk/denton/deal/08:45/2022-10-22
jefftk 4y ago
For those of us less familiar with the British rail network: why would Denton to Manchester Piccadilly be a challenge to book a ticket for?
- pmyteh 4y ago
  There's no fare set for that pair of stations specifically[0], so no way of buying a ticket. You could get one to Stockport and another from Stockport to Manchester, but that's obviously not quite the 'any station to any other station' mentioned. There may also be some kind of Manchester all-area ticket that's valid, but again that adds a knowledge requirement. (Denton is mildly famous amongst British rail enthusiasts as it has a 'parliamentary'[1] service of one train a week each way. Useless for actual travel, but (partly because of an unusually pleasant station buffet with good beer at Stalybridge) the regular site of meetups for rail geeks). [0]: https://www.brfares.com/!!expert?orig=DTN&dest=MAN https://www.brfares.com/!!expert?orig=DTN&dest=MAN [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_train

nicoburns 4y ago

> Meanwhile, in the UK, you can go to Stalybridge on the outskirts of Manchester and ask the ticket office for a return ticket from Edinburgh Haymarket to Bury St Edmunds and they won't bat an eyelid even though it covers God knows how many potential operators. You can even get a ticket to Ryde, Isle of Wight and get the Ferry ticket included too.

mnd999 4y ago
That also works for Dublin believe it or not.
- lmm 4y ago
  You certainly can't just order those at an arbitrary station, and I think that ticket might actually have been abolished entirely.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    http://traintimes.org.uk/CTR/DCL/14:30/today http://traintimes.org.uk/CTR/DCL/14:30/today I'm fairly sure you can buy this from any station in Britain, at least if it has a ticket office or machines.

nextos 4y ago

The problem is usually price and reliability. You can commute Segovia - Madrid Chamartin on a high speed train (95 km, 27 min, 200 euro per month). Reliability and price are top notch. A comparable commute is Cambridge - London (60 mi, 65 min, 500-600 pound per month depending on some details). I have used both, and there is no contest, sadly.

matt-p 4y ago
To be honest, I don't think that's a very fair comparison time:distance wise. Cambridge is infamously time consuming to get to by train and that's a very good route in Spain, they are not all that quick. For example Peterborough which is quite some miles north of Cambridge runs trains to London in 51 mins. What about Milton Keynes > London in 34 mins, Reading > London in 30 mins and so on.
- pjc50 4y ago
  > Cambridge is infamously time consuming to get to by train Why is this? I know the story about the University insisting that the station be far from the center of town to make it inconvenient for students, and that Peterborough is on the ECML, but I don't see good reasons for Cambridge being hard to get to. There are direct express trains! It's not the North where everyone's trundling around in Pacers.
  - matt-p 4y ago
    I suppose it depends on what your definition of express is, what you're used to and so on. I think most people in that part of the country equate express to 125mph trains, that are either direct or 'more or less' direct.. which places like Milton Keynes and Peterborough do have. I think the reasons are mix of the two above you mention. No ecml which for what can only be described as a decent economic hub is a missed opportunity. Train station a bit of a pain to get to which extends real life journey times, although they are clearly trying to improve that and Cambridge North isn't bad.
    - 4y ago

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

Meanwhile in Japan (Tokyo at least) the red, blue, green, whatever lines aren’t even the same companies and good luck foreigner!

masklinn 4y ago
IME it’s completely transparent. You load up your suica and you’re off. The issue’s it’s a bit too transparent: and after a while you realise that your suica is emptying unexpectedly fast, because you’re paying (and resetting your trip counter) every time you pass a gate, and that you probably shouldn’t blindly follow western trip system because you want to limit network switches, at which point you run into the issue that the resources for that are mostly in Japanese. Then it depends how much the overhead is and how much you care.
- karaokeyoga 4y ago
  Google Maps shows us the total trip cost – I'm assuming that's reliable.
4dregress 4y ago
JR Pass is the answer for this! The JR Pass is awesome! https://www.jrpass.com/ https://www.jrpass.com/
- kochikame 4y ago
  No, the existence of the JR pass exactly proves their point. It only works on JR lines, so in Tokyo you still need to buy tickets for all the private train lines and metro lines (city run and private run). Try getting around Tokyo on the daily using only JR lines; it won't be too much fun for you. JR pass is only really useful for long-haul, intercity type journeys, primarily by shinkansen
  - masklinn 4y ago
    If you’re in Tokyo you get a suica. It works on all lines, and can also be used as a payment card at various vending machines and shops (including I think all the big combini brands and many marts).

pjc50 4y ago

Hmm. Have you tried buying Spanish tickets on thetrainline? (For a while in the early 2000s the best way to buy UK train tickets was through the Deutsche Bahn website; exogenous ticketing is weird, but presumably they've already done the API work to simplify it for you)

Mordisquitos 4y ago
> Hmm. Have you tried buying Spanish tickets on thetrainline? I've given it a go, but on my phone TheTrainLine is returning "unavailable" on literally any journey for some reason (my radical ad-and-tracker blocking?). I was trying to search for tickets from Cervera—served by regional trains from Barcelona and Lleida—to Torrijos—served by regional trains from Madrid. If TheTrainLine works for you maybe you can try Cervera-Torrijos. Best case, I'm guessing it might be able to suggest a reasonable combination (regional to Lleida -> high speed to Madrid -> regional to Torrijos) but I'd be very surprised if it can directly sell you any ticket except the Lleida-Madrid one, let alone the whole route as a single ticket. EDIT: I finally got TheTrainLine working, and it suggested me an odd bus journey from Cervera rather than the train. So, I decided to check, and in fact TheTrainLine is fully unaware of commuter and regional services around Barcelona or Madrid, and erroneously states "No tickets available" even when searching for routes which I take often. This is almost as bad as Renfe's own website, but at least TheTrainLine includes (some) 3rd party bus services.

martopix 4y ago

I came here to say something of this sort too. I have experience trying to buy international train tickets around Europe, and it's very often a big mess. Prices are different on different websites, they won't sell you regional trains, etc. The EU should intervene and make it easier.

Bayart 4y ago
> The EU should intervene and make it easier. They're about to. National train operators were mandated to find a solution to homogenize booking but it's getting nowhere.
- martopix 4y ago
  Thank you, do you have a link with more info on the plan?
  - Bayart 4y ago
    Here's some info on the action plan : https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news/action-plan-boost-passenger-rail-2021-12-14_en https://transport.ec.europa.eu/news/action-plan-boost-passen...

arcen 4y ago

Frankly, that pales to what we have here in The Netherlands. A single OV-chipkaart swipe and you can take an NS train to wherever you want without needing to reserve seats and pre-book tickets. When I was in UK I didn't understand why the need for so much complexity when they could make it work like London metro (swipe in/out with a card). Needless to say I am not a fan of the UK system. edit: grammar

superhuzza 4y ago
Wouldn't work because you could complete the same trip via a range of different companies. So to keep track, you'd need to be tapping in/off each train so the operators could charge you accordingly. And then you'd never have an idea of what the price would be, as fares change according to how early you book and how busy the trains are. I'm not saying it's a good system - it's a very bad one, having it split between so many companies is a mistake. But the London metro is not a good analogy since it is all one company.
iggldiggl 4y ago
As implemented, the OV chipkaart has its own share of problems. 1. For railway travel, you need to top up a minimum balance of 20 € (okay, technically 16 €, because with an anonymous card you're allowed 4 € of credit), which is already a bit on the high side if you're only need to go a few stations by train and are only travelling occasionally. 2. Changing trains has become a bit more complicated, because if the change of trains also coincides with a change of the train operator you now always have to check out and back in again (and the check out/in procedure also potentially makes things more expensive than a true through ticket). 3. Certain offers (including e.g. reduced fares for children!) are only available with a personal chipkaart – for a long time those were impossible to obtain without a Dutch address of residence and/or bank account. These days they're also sold to residents of Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany, but you still have to order them in advance, and everybody else is still left out (e.g. somebody from Lille is actually closer to the Dutch border than somebody living in Munich, but only the latter is allowed to buy a personal chipkaart).
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
The Netherlands is a small country though. Reservations are not needed because you're expected to stand if the train is fully occupied. Travel journey is rarely longer than an hour. The Dutch railway system is more like a giant metro/light rail. Trains between the major cities have a high frequency of every 10 minutes.

iggldiggl 4y ago

Very much this. In Germany the law regulating railway demands that all train companies work together in creating through-fares, but in practice as far as long distance trains are concerned that obligation seems to have been forgotten and we're only saved by the fact that only a small minority of those trains are operated by TOCs other than DB.

cobaltoxide 4y ago

Deutsche Bahn's trip planner at https://www.bahn.com/en https://www.bahn.com/en is fun to play with. I just tried asking for a journey from London to Sofia (Bulgaria) and it finds one instantly. Although it appears DB can't sell a ticket for the route.