6 ms·

I find the implication that aliens are rational and have no subrational concepts due to tradition and habit interesting, as it sort of implies that these kinds

by _k9eq 4y ago

I find the implication that aliens are rational and have no subrational concepts due to tradition and habit interesting, as it sort of implies that these kinds of outgrowths are not necessary and can just be done away with. The narrator starts from a position of not wanting to legitimize or historicize beyond reductive statements like "some ancient civilization did XYZ". I'll admit that I skimmed through the last part of the thread, so I might have missed something, but I don't see any mention of the decimal calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_calendar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_calendar, or why that failed. I get that this is supposed to be funny, but the indirect message of getting rid of whatever doesn't make conscious sense is simplistic, and spoils the fun for me. Humans are stupid, very funny.

Judgmentality 4y ago
[flagged]
- Sebb767 4y ago
  > It is funny. You should try laughing at how dumb we are. It's fun. But are we dumb or is this just a reductionist take at something that actually has some reason behind it? Things simply stop being funny if you feel like important background is missing, no snobbery needed.
  - MegaButts 4y ago
    People that are too dumb to understand satire while pointing out why it's satire are indeed dumb, and should laugh at their own stupidity. But people on HN care more about being smart than self-aware, which is why this site is full of the funniest comments. He may as well be arguing about why eating babies is a bad idea after reading A Modest Proposal.
- daptaq 4y ago
  > Do you also hate every story ever told? I don't get why this should apply to every story. > It is funny. You should try laughing at how dumb we are. It's fun. Individual humans are stupid, probably most of the time, I don't disagree. But what this reminds me of is when people imagine stone age people as "ooga booga"-idiots, instead of human beings that might have not had access to the same technology and intellectual concepts that we can rightfully feel superior about. And as the narrator is implicitly taking sides with the alien, he too is looking down at us backward humans. I don't know if you have ever met people who hate humanity and try to disassociate themselves the rest. They refer to us as "Humanoids" as if automata that they as superior being have the right to use and manipulate. It is a vibe similiar to this that I picked up, that I object to.
Thorentis 4y ago
Yeah, often people leap to "aliens" being some higher intelligence than us who will judge our poor sub-optimal decisions. Though to me it seems more likely that any life we encounter is more likely to be less intelligent, if intelligent at all.
- hsn915 4y ago
  It's worse. "Aliens have the same taste in things as me". With the implications being something like "Aliens are super intelligent" and "I am super intelligent". IAmVerySmart vibes
- zaik 4y ago
  Aliens with the ability to visit earth will be much more intelligent than humans.
  - generalizations 4y ago
    Except that being farther along the tech tree doesn't imply greater intelligence any more than possessing a car implies greater intelligence than an ancient Roman.
  - antifa 4y ago
    The alien that made the space ship will be smarter, the alien that arrives in the space ship might be less smart than us.
- dawsmik 4y ago
  If Aliens find us, it seems reasonable they would be smarter/more advanced.
  - jimmygrapes 4y ago
    But would you say the same about humanity if we stumbled across an alien culture and were somehow able to communicate with them?
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
haswell 4y ago
The thing that would've brought it around for me is a punchline where the alien says something like "wow, your system is so clean and simple compared to ours". I do think there's a certain degree of humor when looking back at history. There are plenty of things to laugh at in hindsight. But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow a distinctly human trait or inherently a bad thing. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. And to those complaining that we should just have fun with this, I get it. There's some funny stuff in there. But that shouldn't absolve the thread of criticism. It's fair to point out that it's a pretty reductionist take when combined with the implication that humans are uniquely stupid. It's an easy problem to solve with a very slight reframing. $0.02.
- Sebb767 4y ago
  > But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow some distinctly human trait. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. Well, to be fair, we really don't know that - we don't have another advanced civilization to compare us to. But I fully agree, our system might have some legacy cruft, but it works surprisingly well. Joel Spolkys wise words on rewrites also apply to our calendar.
- origin_path 4y ago
  There's also a bunch of less subtle assumptions, like the obviousness of base 10. That comes from us having ten fingers, right? It's easy to imagine aliens having six fingers on each hand and then assuming that base 12 is the most obvious and logical base to use for everything.
  - avar 4y ago
    There's no reason to suppose that an intelligent alien race would find it convenient to count things in base that matches the number of "fingers" they have, if they even have such a thing. Whales aren't far from being intelligent enough to form a technical civilization, but their body plan makes it unlikely that they'd use their "fingers" (or fins) to count, or to communicate with other whales. Even if you gave an alien two human hands and knew that their counting system's base was derived from physical features of their "hands" it's not obvious that they'd come up with either base-5 or base-10 if they where starting from first principles. We have 3 joints that make up our fingers, but the "base 10" assumes we only use one of those. It's not obvious that even a close relative to humans wouldn't come up with base-20 or base-30 just from counting using their fingers. If you straighten or bend your wrist to add an "extra" finger for counting you're now counting in base-6 on one hand, base-12 on both. Do the same with your elbow joint and you're base-7 and base-14, respectively.
hackerlight 4y ago
> subrational concepts More like vestigial organs that our society isn't capable enough to excise.
- haswell 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not society is capable. If we had to, we’d find a way to switch calendaring systems. It’s more about pragmatism and priority. The world is filled with big problems that require global collaboration. Collaboration on such a scale is hard. That we don’t spend time revamping a working system while other systems crumble and burn is arguably a good thing. It means we’re still at least aware of what matters. There is nothing vestigial about time tracking. You can argue that the names of things are no longer useful, but at that point it’s time to throw out much of our language.
lyu07282 4y ago
At the end of the story they isolate us from them and prevent us from reaching the stars, I don't think the implication is that this is just due to the weird calendar system. I think its more than that, our inability to rid ourselves from our tradition and religious heritage has more profound implications. We don't look at things rationally and make decisions to improve ourselves. The aliens may have gone through similar steps in their evolution of their civilization so they probably know what it *means* if a post-interstellar species still uses a gods birthday to count time. We aren't making any collective rational decisions yet, we build elaborate structures around tradition that more or less managed to reduce our collective human suffering at least in the northern hemisphere. It took us hundreds of years to rid ourselves from slavery and it will probably take us hundreds more to figure out that murdering billions of animals is bad for example. We might never figure out how to prevent poverty, inequality, racism, imperialism, colonialism and war. We probably make earth uninhabitable way before then anyhow. I can see why aliens want to isolate and not want to talk to us. Not because of the calendar system we use, but because of what it represents.
- yetihehe 4y ago
  > The aliens may have gone through similar steps in their evolution of their civilization so they probably know what it means if a post-interstellar species still uses a gods birthday to count time. Or they might feel that using merely having gods is an obvious sign that we are unsuitable to be included in galactic community. https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...
- AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
rendall 4y ago
I'm also not a fan of the "alien-who-is-really-the-writer has an objectively superior and judgmental perspective" genre, even when it's trying to be funny. Some movies: K-PAX was one, Powder, another.
- neuronic 4y ago
  It's just a rhetorical mechanism to deliver critique in a format that is entertaining and not too dry.
  - rendall 4y ago
    It's invariably too "on the nose" for my tastes

by _k9eq 4y ago

Judgmentality 4y ago

[flagged]

Sebb767 4y ago
> It is funny. You should try laughing at how dumb we are. It's fun. But are we dumb or is this just a reductionist take at something that actually has some reason behind it? Things simply stop being funny if you feel like important background is missing, no snobbery needed.
- MegaButts 4y ago
  People that are too dumb to understand satire while pointing out why it's satire are indeed dumb, and should laugh at their own stupidity. But people on HN care more about being smart than self-aware, which is why this site is full of the funniest comments. He may as well be arguing about why eating babies is a bad idea after reading A Modest Proposal.
daptaq 4y ago
> Do you also hate every story ever told? I don't get why this should apply to every story. > It is funny. You should try laughing at how dumb we are. It's fun. Individual humans are stupid, probably most of the time, I don't disagree. But what this reminds me of is when people imagine stone age people as "ooga booga"-idiots, instead of human beings that might have not had access to the same technology and intellectual concepts that we can rightfully feel superior about. And as the narrator is implicitly taking sides with the alien, he too is looking down at us backward humans. I don't know if you have ever met people who hate humanity and try to disassociate themselves the rest. They refer to us as "Humanoids" as if automata that they as superior being have the right to use and manipulate. It is a vibe similiar to this that I picked up, that I object to.

Thorentis 4y ago

Yeah, often people leap to "aliens" being some higher intelligence than us who will judge our poor sub-optimal decisions. Though to me it seems more likely that any life we encounter is more likely to be less intelligent, if intelligent at all.

hsn915 4y ago
It's worse. "Aliens have the same taste in things as me". With the implications being something like "Aliens are super intelligent" and "I am super intelligent". IAmVerySmart vibes
zaik 4y ago
Aliens with the ability to visit earth will be much more intelligent than humans.
- generalizations 4y ago
  Except that being farther along the tech tree doesn't imply greater intelligence any more than possessing a car implies greater intelligence than an ancient Roman.
- antifa 4y ago
  The alien that made the space ship will be smarter, the alien that arrives in the space ship might be less smart than us.
dawsmik 4y ago
If Aliens find us, it seems reasonable they would be smarter/more advanced.
- jimmygrapes 4y ago
  But would you say the same about humanity if we stumbled across an alien culture and were somehow able to communicate with them?
stjohnswarts 4y ago

haswell 4y ago

The thing that would've brought it around for me is a punchline where the alien says something like "wow, your system is so clean and simple compared to ours". I do think there's a certain degree of humor when looking back at history. There are plenty of things to laugh at in hindsight. But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow a distinctly human trait or inherently a bad thing. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. And to those complaining that we should just have fun with this, I get it. There's some funny stuff in there. But that shouldn't absolve the thread of criticism. It's fair to point out that it's a pretty reductionist take when combined with the implication that humans are uniquely stupid. It's an easy problem to solve with a very slight reframing. $0.02.

Sebb767 4y ago
> But the thing that rubs me wrong is the undertone that this is somehow some distinctly human trait. That somehow only humanity is subject to the impact of evolution and gradual learning over time. Well, to be fair, we really don't know that - we don't have another advanced civilization to compare us to. But I fully agree, our system might have some legacy cruft, but it works surprisingly well. Joel Spolkys wise words on rewrites also apply to our calendar.
origin_path 4y ago
There's also a bunch of less subtle assumptions, like the obviousness of base 10. That comes from us having ten fingers, right? It's easy to imagine aliens having six fingers on each hand and then assuming that base 12 is the most obvious and logical base to use for everything.
- avar 4y ago
  There's no reason to suppose that an intelligent alien race would find it convenient to count things in base that matches the number of "fingers" they have, if they even have such a thing. Whales aren't far from being intelligent enough to form a technical civilization, but their body plan makes it unlikely that they'd use their "fingers" (or fins) to count, or to communicate with other whales. Even if you gave an alien two human hands and knew that their counting system's base was derived from physical features of their "hands" it's not obvious that they'd come up with either base-5 or base-10 if they where starting from first principles. We have 3 joints that make up our fingers, but the "base 10" assumes we only use one of those. It's not obvious that even a close relative to humans wouldn't come up with base-20 or base-30 just from counting using their fingers. If you straighten or bend your wrist to add an "extra" finger for counting you're now counting in base-6 on one hand, base-12 on both. Do the same with your elbow joint and you're base-7 and base-14, respectively.

hackerlight 4y ago

> subrational concepts More like vestigial organs that our society isn't capable enough to excise.

haswell 4y ago
I don’t think it’s a question of whether or not society is capable. If we had to, we’d find a way to switch calendaring systems. It’s more about pragmatism and priority. The world is filled with big problems that require global collaboration. Collaboration on such a scale is hard. That we don’t spend time revamping a working system while other systems crumble and burn is arguably a good thing. It means we’re still at least aware of what matters. There is nothing vestigial about time tracking. You can argue that the names of things are no longer useful, but at that point it’s time to throw out much of our language.

lyu07282 4y ago

At the end of the story they isolate us from them and prevent us from reaching the stars, I don't think the implication is that this is just due to the weird calendar system. I think its more than that, our inability to rid ourselves from our tradition and religious heritage has more profound implications. We don't look at things rationally and make decisions to improve ourselves. The aliens may have gone through similar steps in their evolution of their civilization so they probably know what it *means* if a post-interstellar species still uses a gods birthday to count time. We aren't making any collective rational decisions yet, we build elaborate structures around tradition that more or less managed to reduce our collective human suffering at least in the northern hemisphere. It took us hundreds of years to rid ourselves from slavery and it will probably take us hundreds more to figure out that murdering billions of animals is bad for example. We might never figure out how to prevent poverty, inequality, racism, imperialism, colonialism and war. We probably make earth uninhabitable way before then anyhow. I can see why aliens want to isolate and not want to talk to us. Not because of the calendar system we use, but because of what it represents.

yetihehe 4y ago
> The aliens may have gone through similar steps in their evolution of their civilization so they probably know what it means if a post-interstellar species still uses a gods birthday to count time. Or they might feel that using merely having gods is an obvious sign that we are unsuitable to be included in galactic community. https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...
AlgorithmicTime 4y ago

rendall 4y ago

I'm also not a fan of the "alien-who-is-really-the-writer has an objectively superior and judgmental perspective" genre, even when it's trying to be funny. Some movies: K-PAX was one, Powder, another.

neuronic 4y ago
It's just a rhetorical mechanism to deliver critique in a format that is entertaining and not too dry.
- rendall 4y ago
  It's invariably too "on the nose" for my tastes