3 ms·

My Junior Got Fired and Sued for Working on His Side Projects During Office Hrs

4 points by donutshop 4y ago

josephcsible 4y ago
> according to California’s state law, if any of the following cases are true, the company/employer will own the IP. > * If you use the company’s resources > * Company computer, laptop, or any equipment. > * Company’s cell phone. > * Company's office space. > * Company’s time also. Until I saw this laid out like this, I never realized how one-sided it is. For an individual to own copyright, you need to own everything involved in creating the work. If a corporation owns even one thing involved, it instead gets the entire ownership of the copyright. And "company's office space" is particularly awful. If your workday is over, but you stay in the office building for a few minutes to stay out of the rain while waiting for your bus home, your employer shouldn't get to own anything you do on your personal cell phone in that time.
- hi_herbert 4y ago
- eurleif 4y ago
  I think you're misstating it a bit. To my understanding, California law doesn't say that if any of those conditions are met, the employer automatically owns the IP. Rather, it says that if none of those conditions are met, any contractual provision which would otherwise cause the employer to own the IP is invalid. If one or more of the conditions are met, the contract (and other laws, such as work for hire) govern, and the IP may or may not belong to the employer.
- tgflynn 4y ago
  That's much better than most states. With the typical big corp employment agreement in NY the only safe way to start your own project is to quit.
tpmx 4y ago
Please don't upvote this garbage just because it purposely ticks all the stereotypical boxes for a successful, yet unsourced HN post that would only result in hundreds of meaningless comments making none of us any wiser.
- jollofricepeas 4y ago
  Agreed. What I will say however is what I tell my team… 1) Our organization does not pay you for your time. It pays you for your expertise. 2) Automate all the things and accomplish our organizational goals efficiently to maximize your time. 3) If you work 4 hours a day and want to speed the rest with your kids, dog, partner OR just reading, learning, rock climbing, moonlighting, traveling then fine 4) BUT when there’s an emergency the team expects you to be both immediately available and productive. 5) If you break this trust within the team, we will let you know quickly and will help you move on to another organization
  - tpmx 4y ago
    ?
jackblemming 4y ago
>Because you can’t break the law and try to justify it. No matter what. Unless you can pay the fine it seems. So essentially, laws only apply to poor people. This whole article was naive and empty. What was the author even trying to say? Be a good boy, complete your JIRA cases and follow the law (which is always right and fair)?
armchairhacker 4y ago
what are the consequences for working on a side project if it’s open-source? I get that if you work on it on company time, the company can demand any time spent from your wages. If you potentially put trade secrets into it they can ask for the work to be taken offline? But what if the work is open-source, you didn’t put any trade secrets (and can prove easily, e.g. it’s a different domain)? Maybe you worked on it during company time, maybe using company equipment. Can the company ask for it to be removed from the public? Moreover, what if you submit pull requests / contributions to existing open-source projects on company time? Surely the company can’t just take over the repo, who had no clue you were supposed to be working. But they can’t really “undo” the PR, even if they remove the exact code or even copyright the algorithm, because the information on how to implement it is already out there.
donutshop 4y ago
Interesting read for me. I've worked with lots of engineers that pad their resume by engaging in fruitless experiments. (Everything built with Rust, K8s) As orgs grow it's harder to draw the line between "side" projects and business priorities.
- tpmx 4y ago
  That's "just" bad engineering management. This IMO most likely fictional story (have a look at the index of posts) is about someone who was caught "red-handed" working for a "side job" while also working at Google.
  - donutshop 4y ago
    Are you suggesting that engineering management just needs to have stricter guidance in terms of scope? With HN it's not uncommon to see somebody jump on the latest bandwagon/buzz right after a post picks up traction.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      Yeah, I am.
MisterSandman 4y ago
Others have said this but I thought I'd put this as a top level comment: this is probably fake. It's obviously unsourced, but it just seems too odd. I highly doubt Google would "sue" an employee for their entire salary, and I highly doubt a Google engineer would be in this situation in the first place. Other posts by the author also seem inauthentic.

4 points by donutshop 4y ago

> according to California’s state law, if any of the following cases are true, the company/employer will own the IP. > * If you use the company’s resources > * Company computer, laptop, or any equipment. > * Company’s cell phone. > * Company's office space. > * Company’s time also. Until I saw this laid out like this, I never realized how one-sided it is. For an individual to own copyright, you need to own everything involved in creating the work. If a corporation owns even one thing involved, it instead gets the entire ownership of the copyright. And "company's office space" is particularly awful. If your workday is over, but you stay in the office building for a few minutes to stay out of the rain while waiting for your bus home, your employer shouldn't get to own anything you do on your personal cell phone in that time.

hi_herbert 4y ago
eurleif 4y ago
I think you're misstating it a bit. To my understanding, California law doesn't say that if any of those conditions are met, the employer automatically owns the IP. Rather, it says that if none of those conditions are met, any contractual provision which would otherwise cause the employer to own the IP is invalid. If one or more of the conditions are met, the contract (and other laws, such as work for hire) govern, and the IP may or may not belong to the employer.
tgflynn 4y ago
That's much better than most states. With the typical big corp employment agreement in NY the only safe way to start your own project is to quit.

tpmx 4y ago

Please don't upvote this garbage just because it purposely ticks all the stereotypical boxes for a successful, yet unsourced HN post that would only result in hundreds of meaningless comments making none of us any wiser.

jollofricepeas 4y ago
Agreed. What I will say however is what I tell my team… 1) Our organization does not pay you for your time. It pays you for your expertise. 2) Automate all the things and accomplish our organizational goals efficiently to maximize your time. 3) If you work 4 hours a day and want to speed the rest with your kids, dog, partner OR just reading, learning, rock climbing, moonlighting, traveling then fine 4) BUT when there’s an emergency the team expects you to be both immediately available and productive. 5) If you break this trust within the team, we will let you know quickly and will help you move on to another organization
- tpmx 4y ago
  ?

jackblemming 4y ago

>Because you can’t break the law and try to justify it. No matter what. Unless you can pay the fine it seems. So essentially, laws only apply to poor people. This whole article was naive and empty. What was the author even trying to say? Be a good boy, complete your JIRA cases and follow the law (which is always right and fair)?

armchairhacker 4y ago

what are the consequences for working on a side project if it’s open-source? I get that if you work on it on company time, the company can demand any time spent from your wages. If you potentially put trade secrets into it they can ask for the work to be taken offline? But what if the work is open-source, you didn’t put any trade secrets (and can prove easily, e.g. it’s a different domain)? Maybe you worked on it during company time, maybe using company equipment. Can the company ask for it to be removed from the public? Moreover, what if you submit pull requests / contributions to existing open-source projects on company time? Surely the company can’t just take over the repo, who had no clue you were supposed to be working. But they can’t really “undo” the PR, even if they remove the exact code or even copyright the algorithm, because the information on how to implement it is already out there.

donutshop 4y ago

Interesting read for me. I've worked with lots of engineers that pad their resume by engaging in fruitless experiments. (Everything built with Rust, K8s) As orgs grow it's harder to draw the line between "side" projects and business priorities.

tpmx 4y ago
That's "just" bad engineering management. This IMO most likely fictional story (have a look at the index of posts) is about someone who was caught "red-handed" working for a "side job" while also working at Google.
- donutshop 4y ago
  Are you suggesting that engineering management just needs to have stricter guidance in terms of scope? With HN it's not uncommon to see somebody jump on the latest bandwagon/buzz right after a post picks up traction.
  - tpmx 4y ago
    Yeah, I am.

MisterSandman 4y ago

Others have said this but I thought I'd put this as a top level comment: this is probably fake. It's obviously unsourced, but it just seems too odd. I highly doubt Google would "sue" an employee for their entire salary, and I highly doubt a Google engineer would be in this situation in the first place. Other posts by the author also seem inauthentic.