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Apple didn't invest in ARM until late 1990, after ARM3 had been released. By this point Acorn had already released two generations of its UNIX workstation line

Apple didn't invest in ARM until late 1990, after ARM3 had been released. By this point Acorn had already released two generations of its UNIX workstation line running its 4.3BSD + X11 based RISC iX, the ARM2 A440/1 based R140 and ARM3 A540 based R260. It did have virtual memory though its large for the time 32k page size was awkward. It only supported DMA for video so the CPU needed to manually copy data from the hard drive controller. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_iX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_iX

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
I'll take your word for it on investment date. But Apple used the ARM as early as 1992 (for the Newton). And so, pipeline wise, on their radar much earlier than that. So years before the 68k->PowerPC transition, and while they were still considering 88k. It is somewhat fun to imagine an alternate world where Apple jumped to ARM instead of PowerPC, but they had other goals at the time. (Likely the whole 68k emulation story would have been very tricky with ARM at the time, tho)
- klelatti 4y ago
  Apple can use Arm today because TSMC offers leading edge fabrication. It almost certainly couldn't do before because it would have had to use an uncompetitive node the compared to say Intel. Plus Apple now has the cash and design team to design a very high performance implementation. It's not had that at the time of the last two transitions.
  - tambourine_man 4y ago
    I think the TSCM change is more relevant. Having the best process node in the world for rent for anyone willing to pay is really transformative.
  - laurencerowe 4y ago
    Had the StrongARM processor come out a little earlier you could just about imagine an alternative where Apple had picked it over the PowerPC. DEC released the StrongARM in 1996 and it was faster and far lower power than Intel's Pentiums of the time. The StrongARM IP ended up with Intel as XScale when they bought out DEC's semiconductor manufacturing operations as part of a legal settlement. But the lead of Digital's design center that built StrongARM went on to form PA Semi, who Apple bought in 2008. The first Apple-designed ARM chip was released a couple of years later with the iPhone 4 in 2010.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Apple is using ARMv8 which doesn’t have much in common with older ARMs past the name. Also, Apple didn’t just fund and design a good implementation, ARMv8 was created for the project in the first place.
    - klelatti 4y ago
      Source?
      - astrange 4y ago
        https://twitter.com/stuntpants/status/1346470705446092811 https://twitter.com/stuntpants/status/1346470705446092811
        klelatti 4y ago
        That might be the perception inside Apple but I'm certain Arm was planning to build a 64 bit core anyway and would expect to work with leading customers on its development. So calling it 'the Apple ISA' is overstating it a bit. Also https://twitter.com/TheKanter/status/1346480394057650177?s=20&t=Vt3HEHBSesl_No1PdHZp3A https://twitter.com/TheKanter/status/1346480394057650177?s=2... Also it's interesting that when the first Armv8 CPU came out there wasn't any mention by Apple of it being made for them - which is odd given how much weight they give to Apple's input and control elsewhere.
- laurencerowe 4y ago
  Apple's investment in ARM in November 1990 (when ARM was spun out of Acorn as a joint venture between Acorn, Apple, and VLSI) was a result of Apple's decision to select ARM for the Newton sometime in 1990 since Acorn and Apple competed in the UK education market [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6sh097Dk5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6sh097Dk5k, "A History of The ARM Microprocessor"

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

I'll take your word for it on investment date. But Apple used the ARM as early as 1992 (for the Newton). And so, pipeline wise, on their radar much earlier than that. So years before the 68k->PowerPC transition, and while they were still considering 88k. It is somewhat fun to imagine an alternate world where Apple jumped to ARM instead of PowerPC, but they had other goals at the time. (Likely the whole 68k emulation story would have been very tricky with ARM at the time, tho)

klelatti 4y ago
Apple can use Arm today because TSMC offers leading edge fabrication. It almost certainly couldn't do before because it would have had to use an uncompetitive node the compared to say Intel. Plus Apple now has the cash and design team to design a very high performance implementation. It's not had that at the time of the last two transitions.
- tambourine_man 4y ago
  I think the TSCM change is more relevant. Having the best process node in the world for rent for anyone willing to pay is really transformative.
- laurencerowe 4y ago
  Had the StrongARM processor come out a little earlier you could just about imagine an alternative where Apple had picked it over the PowerPC. DEC released the StrongARM in 1996 and it was faster and far lower power than Intel's Pentiums of the time. The StrongARM IP ended up with Intel as XScale when they bought out DEC's semiconductor manufacturing operations as part of a legal settlement. But the lead of Digital's design center that built StrongARM went on to form PA Semi, who Apple bought in 2008. The first Apple-designed ARM chip was released a couple of years later with the iPhone 4 in 2010.
- astrange 4y ago
  Apple is using ARMv8 which doesn’t have much in common with older ARMs past the name. Also, Apple didn’t just fund and design a good implementation, ARMv8 was created for the project in the first place.
  - klelatti 4y ago
    Source?
    - astrange 4y ago
      https://twitter.com/stuntpants/status/1346470705446092811 https://twitter.com/stuntpants/status/1346470705446092811
      - klelatti 4y ago
        That might be the perception inside Apple but I'm certain Arm was planning to build a 64 bit core anyway and would expect to work with leading customers on its development. So calling it 'the Apple ISA' is overstating it a bit. Also https://twitter.com/TheKanter/status/1346480394057650177?s=20&t=Vt3HEHBSesl_No1PdHZp3A https://twitter.com/TheKanter/status/1346480394057650177?s=2... Also it's interesting that when the first Armv8 CPU came out there wasn't any mention by Apple of it being made for them - which is odd given how much weight they give to Apple's input and control elsewhere.
laurencerowe 4y ago
Apple's investment in ARM in November 1990 (when ARM was spun out of Acorn as a joint venture between Acorn, Apple, and VLSI) was a result of Apple's decision to select ARM for the Newton sometime in 1990 since Acorn and Apple competed in the UK education market [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6sh097Dk5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6sh097Dk5k, "A History of The ARM Microprocessor"