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>but the government absolutely has ways to make Boeing of all people cooperate. Boeing is not 'a person' and neither is the government. Boeing is a conglomera

>but the government absolutely has ways to make Boeing of all people cooperate. Boeing is not 'a person' and neither is the government. Boeing is a conglomerate of affiliated smaller organizations. So is the FBI and CIA. Understanding those dynamics is what makes this scenario so implausible. - Boeing commercial programs are separately funded from military. The executives and engineers in charge generally have no interest in committing fraud for other programs. - Boeing has shareholders and a board of directors. There are no laws in the US that allow executives and staff to defraud shareholders and the board on behalf of the government. Employees/executives would be subject to criminal and civil liability. - At the individual level, many of these people have security clearances. Fraud/lying on official documents is the easiest way to lose your clearance. There are no provisions for "It's OK to lie for the good guys". If you lie in an official proceeding, you are going to lose your clearance. - FBI is composed of numerous divisions, with competing interests and turf to defend. At the end of the day, someone at Boeing legal would have to sit down and look at this and say "Well, if the hundreds of people involved all agree to commit fraud and no one finds out, we're in the clear for some nebulous illegal kickback down the line line. Sign us up!"

ceejayoz 4y ago
> Boeing commercial programs are separately funded from military. Boeing still has a top level of management; the CEO's purview includes everything from SLS to Air Force tankers to the 737-MAX's problems. > There are no laws in the US that allow executives and staff to defraud shareholders and the board on behalf of the government. National security letters are a prominent counterexample to this claim. > There are no provisions for "It's OK to lie for the good guys". James Clapper lied to Congress about PRISM without repercussions. > At the end of the day, someone at Boeing legal would have to sit down and look at this and say "Well, if the hundreds of people involved all agree to commit fraud and no one finds out, we're in the clear for some nebulous illegal kickback down the line line. Sign us up!" That's backwards. Boeing Legal would go "we've been told the following items are classified Top Secret, and all of us can go to jail for disclosing them". Loss of future programs is a consequence - the stick, not the carrot.
licebmi__at__ 4y ago
> Boeing is not 'a person' and neither is the government. Boeing is a conglomerate of affiliated smaller organizations. So is the FBI and CIA. Understanding those dynamics is what makes this scenario so implausible. >At the individual level, many of these people have security clearances. Fraud/lying on official documents is the easiest way to lose your clearance. There are no provisions for "It's OK to lie for the good guys". If you lie in an official proceeding, you are going to lose your clearance. Are these 2 arguments consistent with each other? I mean, Boeing, government and letter soup agencies don’t behave organizationally, except when it comes to upholding the right rules?

ceejayoz 4y ago

> Boeing commercial programs are separately funded from military. Boeing still has a top level of management; the CEO's purview includes everything from SLS to Air Force tankers to the 737-MAX's problems. > There are no laws in the US that allow executives and staff to defraud shareholders and the board on behalf of the government. National security letters are a prominent counterexample to this claim. > There are no provisions for "It's OK to lie for the good guys". James Clapper lied to Congress about PRISM without repercussions. > At the end of the day, someone at Boeing legal would have to sit down and look at this and say "Well, if the hundreds of people involved all agree to commit fraud and no one finds out, we're in the clear for some nebulous illegal kickback down the line line. Sign us up!" That's backwards. Boeing Legal would go "we've been told the following items are classified Top Secret, and all of us can go to jail for disclosing them". Loss of future programs is a consequence - the stick, not the carrot.

licebmi__at__ 4y ago

> Boeing is not 'a person' and neither is the government. Boeing is a conglomerate of affiliated smaller organizations. So is the FBI and CIA. Understanding those dynamics is what makes this scenario so implausible. >At the individual level, many of these people have security clearances. Fraud/lying on official documents is the easiest way to lose your clearance. There are no provisions for "It's OK to lie for the good guys". If you lie in an official proceeding, you are going to lose your clearance. Are these 2 arguments consistent with each other? I mean, Boeing, government and letter soup agencies don’t behave organizationally, except when it comes to upholding the right rules?