10 ms·

Wages are too high, because our entire economy is built on the backs of available race to the bottom international labor. Demographics and the security situati

by jmoak3 4y ago

Wages are too high, because our entire economy is built on the backs of available race to the bottom international labor. Demographics and the security situation is changing this, and the establishment (for better and worse) is absolutely freaking out. The world as we have lived it the past 30 years cannot exist if people doing labor can command a decent wage by USA standards, we’re going to have to recalibrate for a while

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
That's why you import labour en mass, pay them less and kick them out when you're done with them. At least that seems to be my country's solution? Literally a permanent underclass of temporary foreign workers propping up parts of the economy.
- givemeethekeys 4y ago
  If by your country you mean, Singapore, then yes. It works because foreign exchange is likely in Singapore's favor. People who come can be indentured servants and help out a lot of people back home. At some point though, the tide begins to turn and you have to find new sources of cheap labor. But, what happens when the sources run dry?
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    Qatar would be the prime example?
    - givemeethekeys 4y ago
      Definitely - some of the Arab countries - Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE.
  - csomar 4y ago
    The world is big and never seems to be running of countries going bankrupt or going into chaos. You'll always find new people. Also, Africa just opened the gates for tons of new labor.
koheripbal 4y ago
Calling it a "race to the bottom" is a bit ironic, when these jobs have been going to the world's poorest people and those in most need of a job.
- jmoak3 4y ago
  Race to the bottom, as in the price of labor was racing to the minimum. Not really ironic, people with little other opportunity will be the happiest to work for the least. I’m not prescribing right or wrong to the situation, just what is
- smoldesu 4y ago
  You pass off your dirty work to the most desperate players, and the frugal companies even resort to using political prisoners and children as laborers. These companies aren't saviors, they're accutely aware of the living conditions and actively exploit it.
- afpx 4y ago
  These jobs allow something like 60-100M households escape poverty every year. That's a good thing for everyone (except the Earth).
  - salawat 4y ago
    At the price of perpetuating bottom dollar exploitive business models that could only exist in the abscensce of strong labor protections, qnd the export of negative externalities to the greater fool. The wotld as a whole does not benefit from this arrangement.
    - koheripbal 4y ago
  - starkd 4y ago
    Economic activity is not inimical to humanity. Not in and of itself. That's a terrible way to think of your fellow man and our relationship to nature.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Or we could just automate more and innovate, instead of spending most of our time & energy & capital on leveraged speculation that the Fed will continue to endlessly pump up asset prices...
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  The gains would just go to the wealthy without efforts to secure more of the gains for the broad working class. This is as true for the Waltons and old money as it is for your run of the mill unicorn founder. I’m really excited to see the organizing efforts taking place in the US; without them, these workers won’t be able to secure better wages, better quality of life, and a seat at the table with the business. The CEO would just go buy yet another yacht (the CEO of Starbucks is worth $4B and owns a $120M mega yacht, for example).
- UtopiaPunk 4y ago
  As an anti-capitalist, I would love a society where everyone benefited from unpleasant jobs being automated away. However, under capitalism, only the owners will benefit. That's because automation turns labor into property. That means the owners of property, capitalists, benefit. If the value of automation were distributed differently it'd be great. If workers owned a company such as in a worker-cooperative structure, then the workers would be happy to focus less on stuff they don't like and focus on different things. Or a strong state could impose taxes on highly automated industries to fund a kind of universal basic income. But under our status quo, automation benefits the capitalists much more than the general population.
  - prepend 4y ago
    > That's because automation turns labor into property. That means the owners of property, capitalists, benefit. I think customers also benefit. If a janitor costs $100/day and that’s automated away to a robot with $20/day costs that $80 will be passed on to the customer (just like every other technology innovation).
    - edmundsauto 4y ago
echelon 4y ago
Some of those on /r/antiwork seem to expect to build careers from McJobs and Starbucks. Instead of seeing these as part time jobs for high school and college students, their expectations are that these jobs can support an apartment rent in a big city without roommates. These types of complaints seem irrational or misguided. Many of their complaints do seem grounded in truth, however. America's low hanging fruit blue collar jobs have moved to developing nations. The automotive industry doesn't have as many jobs paying what it used to. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk for the trade skill pipeline, which has me curious: why not? Both plumbing and electrical work pay decently and offer a high degree of autonomy, yet these aren't hyped. Nursing can be learned at night school. Not everything requires a college degree or "book smarts". There has to be something more at play, because the middle class is hollowing out. Maybe not enough of these jobs to go around? Or maybe that middle class can never be as big as it once was during the post war boom years that saw American manufacturing leading the world. Maybe every country gets fifty years tops before that crown moves on. They're also not wrong in complaining about asset appreciation. Unaffordable housing and rent. These are real pressures. "Cheap housing" doesn't seem like a bone we can throw. What do we do for these folks that can't get white collar work?
- prepend 4y ago
  > There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk for the trade skill pipeline, which has me curious: why not? I think it’s because these jobs are “hard” in that they require more than a day of training and you can’t use your phone at work. There’s a weird habit with people I know that since they can get $15/hour working at a McJob that doesn’t challenge them physically or mentally that it’s “good enough.” Long term planning is required to learn to weld and make $45/hour.
- steve76 4y ago
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Blue collar shortage in a non-US area. Here, you're not getting the big bucks until you have quite a few years underneath your belt. Additionally, you'll have to be self-employed. That's what people are complaining about. The hurdles are higher and more frequent than before. It's still there, but having your first home at 35 is vastly different from having it at 25. My friend group is filled with people privileged enough to work lucrative white collar jobs, and it's still a massive challenge despite earning more than 90% of all households. Now imagine what happens when blue collars get saturated again. They can't beat white collar work during or after 25-35 without going off the beaten path, while white collar is struggling. Cherry on top: households are getting less while doing more work per household.
starkd 4y ago
Raising wages to a "decent wage by USA standards" is meaningless if you also spark more inflation.

by jmoak3 4y ago

MonkeyMalarky 4y ago

That's why you import labour en mass, pay them less and kick them out when you're done with them. At least that seems to be my country's solution? Literally a permanent underclass of temporary foreign workers propping up parts of the economy.

givemeethekeys 4y ago
If by your country you mean, Singapore, then yes. It works because foreign exchange is likely in Singapore's favor. People who come can be indentured servants and help out a lot of people back home. At some point though, the tide begins to turn and you have to find new sources of cheap labor. But, what happens when the sources run dry?
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Qatar would be the prime example?
  - givemeethekeys 4y ago
    Definitely - some of the Arab countries - Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE.
- csomar 4y ago
  The world is big and never seems to be running of countries going bankrupt or going into chaos. You'll always find new people. Also, Africa just opened the gates for tons of new labor.

koheripbal 4y ago

Calling it a "race to the bottom" is a bit ironic, when these jobs have been going to the world's poorest people and those in most need of a job.

jmoak3 4y ago
Race to the bottom, as in the price of labor was racing to the minimum. Not really ironic, people with little other opportunity will be the happiest to work for the least. I’m not prescribing right or wrong to the situation, just what is
smoldesu 4y ago
You pass off your dirty work to the most desperate players, and the frugal companies even resort to using political prisoners and children as laborers. These companies aren't saviors, they're accutely aware of the living conditions and actively exploit it.
afpx 4y ago
These jobs allow something like 60-100M households escape poverty every year. That's a good thing for everyone (except the Earth).
- salawat 4y ago
  At the price of perpetuating bottom dollar exploitive business models that could only exist in the abscensce of strong labor protections, qnd the export of negative externalities to the greater fool. The wotld as a whole does not benefit from this arrangement.
  - koheripbal 4y ago
- starkd 4y ago
  Economic activity is not inimical to humanity. Not in and of itself. That's a terrible way to think of your fellow man and our relationship to nature.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Or we could just automate more and innovate, instead of spending most of our time & energy & capital on leveraged speculation that the Fed will continue to endlessly pump up asset prices...

toomuchtodo 4y ago
The gains would just go to the wealthy without efforts to secure more of the gains for the broad working class. This is as true for the Waltons and old money as it is for your run of the mill unicorn founder. I’m really excited to see the organizing efforts taking place in the US; without them, these workers won’t be able to secure better wages, better quality of life, and a seat at the table with the business. The CEO would just go buy yet another yacht (the CEO of Starbucks is worth $4B and owns a $120M mega yacht, for example).
UtopiaPunk 4y ago
As an anti-capitalist, I would love a society where everyone benefited from unpleasant jobs being automated away. However, under capitalism, only the owners will benefit. That's because automation turns labor into property. That means the owners of property, capitalists, benefit. If the value of automation were distributed differently it'd be great. If workers owned a company such as in a worker-cooperative structure, then the workers would be happy to focus less on stuff they don't like and focus on different things. Or a strong state could impose taxes on highly automated industries to fund a kind of universal basic income. But under our status quo, automation benefits the capitalists much more than the general population.
- prepend 4y ago
  > That's because automation turns labor into property. That means the owners of property, capitalists, benefit. I think customers also benefit. If a janitor costs $100/day and that’s automated away to a robot with $20/day costs that $80 will be passed on to the customer (just like every other technology innovation).
  - edmundsauto 4y ago

echelon 4y ago

Some of those on /r/antiwork seem to expect to build careers from McJobs and Starbucks. Instead of seeing these as part time jobs for high school and college students, their expectations are that these jobs can support an apartment rent in a big city without roommates. These types of complaints seem irrational or misguided. Many of their complaints do seem grounded in truth, however. America's low hanging fruit blue collar jobs have moved to developing nations. The automotive industry doesn't have as many jobs paying what it used to. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk for the trade skill pipeline, which has me curious: why not? Both plumbing and electrical work pay decently and offer a high degree of autonomy, yet these aren't hyped. Nursing can be learned at night school. Not everything requires a college degree or "book smarts". There has to be something more at play, because the middle class is hollowing out. Maybe not enough of these jobs to go around? Or maybe that middle class can never be as big as it once was during the post war boom years that saw American manufacturing leading the world. Maybe every country gets fifty years tops before that crown moves on. They're also not wrong in complaining about asset appreciation. Unaffordable housing and rent. These are real pressures. "Cheap housing" doesn't seem like a bone we can throw. What do we do for these folks that can't get white collar work?

prepend 4y ago
> There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk for the trade skill pipeline, which has me curious: why not? I think it’s because these jobs are “hard” in that they require more than a day of training and you can’t use your phone at work. There’s a weird habit with people I know that since they can get $15/hour working at a McJob that doesn’t challenge them physically or mentally that it’s “good enough.” Long term planning is required to learn to weld and make $45/hour.
steve76 4y ago
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Blue collar shortage in a non-US area. Here, you're not getting the big bucks until you have quite a few years underneath your belt. Additionally, you'll have to be self-employed. That's what people are complaining about. The hurdles are higher and more frequent than before. It's still there, but having your first home at 35 is vastly different from having it at 25. My friend group is filled with people privileged enough to work lucrative white collar jobs, and it's still a massive challenge despite earning more than 90% of all households. Now imagine what happens when blue collars get saturated again. They can't beat white collar work during or after 25-35 without going off the beaten path, while white collar is struggling. Cherry on top: households are getting less while doing more work per household.

starkd 4y ago

Raising wages to a "decent wage by USA standards" is meaningless if you also spark more inflation.