4 ms·

Maybe there's something to that too. Left wingers also typically, like big government and believe that its fine for us all to collectivised and made to follow

Maybe there's something to that too. Left wingers also typically, like big government and believe that its fine for us all to collectivised and made to follow governments rules. Is that how empathy is used against the empath? Can govt just say that such-and-such is for the greater good, and most will go along with it? It seems so, at times.

kennywinker 4y ago
Not sure that’s a left wing mentality. counter-examples: the patriot act, military spending, police funding. The right seems just as happy to support big gov and tow the official/collectivist line when it comes to “law and order”, international power, nationalism, etc. Put another way, anti-vaxers come in two flavors: right wing conspiracy nuts (alex jones), and left wing flakes (goop).
- aksss 4y ago
  I think what we’re all kind of lacking is the idea of statists vs non-statists. The left and right swap positions on issues like military welfare (tell me again our burn rate in Ukraine right now) and state surveillance (generally a left-loved cause these days) over the decades. The state wants power at a cost to the citizenry. People in power enable this regardless of their party. We should also acknowledge that it’s the nature of the system for the power structures to try and get their hooks in politicians as quickly as possible such that they can be made tools of the power structure. I guess the benefits are good but the consequences on people in power “fighting the system” are multimodal, relentless, and effective.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    I think you might be confused because the “left” in the usa is a centrist liberal party. Liberals are not leftists. Actual leftists do NOT in my experience support state surveillance. Warfare isn’t a left vs right thing per se, e.g. leftist support for ww2 when american nazi sympathies were common. But imperialist wars are generally opposed by leftists. I do think the state-ist vs non-state-ist thing might be useful, but as a leftist there are plenty of things I support a state-based solution to (healthcare) while others I do not (policing - as currently conceived, anything involving personal freedom + autonomy e.g. drugs, lifestyle). I’d suggest it’s more of a “i’m a healthcare state-ist” rather than “i’m a state-ist”.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
You're confusing liberalism with left. People on the left tend to have as much antipathy towards the average far right western neoliberal government as the extreme right. The existence of extremist authoritarian social conservatives and economic libertarians who have similar antipathy should not be confused for left support of authoritarianism.
divided 4y ago
Although I think it's fair to characterize the left as favoring collectivism, I don't think it's fair to characterize them as following government rules any more than the right. Typically speaking, the left want government rules determined by scientists and experts that maximizes overall freedom, the right want government rules determined by the church that maximizes the freedoms of adherents to that church. So while the left may favor following mask mandates or vaccination drives because it benefits the overall physical health of the community; the right favors abortion bans, banning trans healthcare treatments, outlawing gay marriage, and barring race from being discussed in schools for--presumably--the moral health of the community. The right is arguing these things are for the greater good in the same way the left argues wearing a mask in the supermarket is. Both sides want their governments to enact and enforce these rules. I'd argue that telling someone to wear cloth on their face is a lighter government touch than forcing 10 year old rape victims to travel 500 miles for care, but I digress. After all, the government tells you to wear pants and I don't see people calling anyone sheep for doing so.
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  > Typically speaking, the left want government rules determined by scientists and experts that maximizes overall freedom, the right want government rules determined by the church that maximizes the freedoms of adherents to that church. I don't think you have the slightest clue about what you're talking about.
- kcplate 4y ago
  > Although I think it's fair to characterize the left as favoring collectivism, I don't think it's fair to characterize them as following government rules any more than the right. Left/right are really just meaningless words in 2022. The woke left of today is literally as intolerant of any belief outside their moral code as the evangelical religious right is—-to the point that but for their beliefs they are indistinguishable from each other in terms of willful authoritarian support. They are equally destructive and equally bad in my opinion as both want government or community to bend the will of everyone outside their group to the morals of their group.
  - 4y ago

kennywinker 4y ago

Not sure that’s a left wing mentality. counter-examples: the patriot act, military spending, police funding. The right seems just as happy to support big gov and tow the official/collectivist line when it comes to “law and order”, international power, nationalism, etc. Put another way, anti-vaxers come in two flavors: right wing conspiracy nuts (alex jones), and left wing flakes (goop).

aksss 4y ago
I think what we’re all kind of lacking is the idea of statists vs non-statists. The left and right swap positions on issues like military welfare (tell me again our burn rate in Ukraine right now) and state surveillance (generally a left-loved cause these days) over the decades. The state wants power at a cost to the citizenry. People in power enable this regardless of their party. We should also acknowledge that it’s the nature of the system for the power structures to try and get their hooks in politicians as quickly as possible such that they can be made tools of the power structure. I guess the benefits are good but the consequences on people in power “fighting the system” are multimodal, relentless, and effective.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I think you might be confused because the “left” in the usa is a centrist liberal party. Liberals are not leftists. Actual leftists do NOT in my experience support state surveillance. Warfare isn’t a left vs right thing per se, e.g. leftist support for ww2 when american nazi sympathies were common. But imperialist wars are generally opposed by leftists. I do think the state-ist vs non-state-ist thing might be useful, but as a leftist there are plenty of things I support a state-based solution to (healthcare) while others I do not (policing - as currently conceived, anything involving personal freedom + autonomy e.g. drugs, lifestyle). I’d suggest it’s more of a “i’m a healthcare state-ist” rather than “i’m a state-ist”.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

You're confusing liberalism with left. People on the left tend to have as much antipathy towards the average far right western neoliberal government as the extreme right. The existence of extremist authoritarian social conservatives and economic libertarians who have similar antipathy should not be confused for left support of authoritarianism.

divided 4y ago

Although I think it's fair to characterize the left as favoring collectivism, I don't think it's fair to characterize them as following government rules any more than the right. Typically speaking, the left want government rules determined by scientists and experts that maximizes overall freedom, the right want government rules determined by the church that maximizes the freedoms of adherents to that church. So while the left may favor following mask mandates or vaccination drives because it benefits the overall physical health of the community; the right favors abortion bans, banning trans healthcare treatments, outlawing gay marriage, and barring race from being discussed in schools for--presumably--the moral health of the community. The right is arguing these things are for the greater good in the same way the left argues wearing a mask in the supermarket is. Both sides want their governments to enact and enforce these rules. I'd argue that telling someone to wear cloth on their face is a lighter government touch than forcing 10 year old rape victims to travel 500 miles for care, but I digress. After all, the government tells you to wear pants and I don't see people calling anyone sheep for doing so.

nathanaldensr 4y ago
> Typically speaking, the left want government rules determined by scientists and experts that maximizes overall freedom, the right want government rules determined by the church that maximizes the freedoms of adherents to that church. I don't think you have the slightest clue about what you're talking about.
kcplate 4y ago
> Although I think it's fair to characterize the left as favoring collectivism, I don't think it's fair to characterize them as following government rules any more than the right. Left/right are really just meaningless words in 2022. The woke left of today is literally as intolerant of any belief outside their moral code as the evangelical religious right is—-to the point that but for their beliefs they are indistinguishable from each other in terms of willful authoritarian support. They are equally destructive and equally bad in my opinion as both want government or community to bend the will of everyone outside their group to the morals of their group.
- 4y ago