4 ms·

> I do not support wars or war involvement. If Russia comes knocking at your neighbour(ing country)'s doors, wouldn't you want to help them defend? Lest they c

by tromp 4y ago

> I do not support wars or war involvement. If Russia comes knocking at your neighbour(ing country)'s doors, wouldn't you want to help them defend? Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after?

mantas 4y ago
Many people in West seem to be unable to grasp how awful it is to have a barbaric invader. And what they do even if you bend over and give up with no resistance because no war. For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up. Aside from standout examples in like Denmark in WW2. But that is extremely early occurrences.
- germandiago 4y ago
  > For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of talking in their name and that just want to leave in peace instead of being locked down in their country to fight, meaning their life is in the hands of others that force them to go to the war to kill each other. This is exactly what I am demanding from EU: do not decide in my name things that block trade, create energy scarcity and on top of that I have to finance. If someone is willing to fight this cause, of course the european bureaucrats the first ones, go fight in the war, but do not involve the rest of us. If some day they come to my door I will decide on that basis. It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country. By this measure we should all fighting each other all the time almost. I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? They would run away god knows where to hide god knows how much money from favors and a ton of things we might not know. A politician is probably the kind of person I trust the least. I am not talking about specifics. I say the profession. Most are bad.
  - mantas 4y ago
    I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.
    - germandiago 4y ago
      My point is not that you are right or wrong. My point is that both kind of russians and ukranian exist that agree/disagree with other people's choices and they have to put their life in danger because someone else decided for them. Look how people are running away from Russia right now to not get recruited. I fiercely oppose to choices from others and consequences for a third one. If someone finds very important for their country, for their freedom or for whatever, no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war. Do not count on me, but if someone wants to do it and puts their words where they put their choices, that is ok. Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else.
ailef 4y ago
> Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after? This makes it looks like there is a real risk of Russia invading Germany or any other European country, while they are having difficulties already achieving their goals in Ukraine. In doing that you are also ignoring all the historical factors that contributed to that current situation, which are very specific to Ukraine and go back several decades, and buying into the US propaganda that Putin just went crazy and wants to conquer the whole of Europe for imperialistic goals.
- trasz 4y ago
  What factors are that?
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  You are completely incorrect. Russians waged a very similar war in 1956 in Hungary, for exactly same reasons. They killed everybody they wanted, installed very oppressive regime that stayed there for 30+ years. They also invaded my home country of (back then) Czechoslovakia, killed hundreds, and occupied for decades. Oppression, restrictions of basic freedoms, economy down the drain, basic things missing in shops. 200k soviet russian troops to shoot everybody if they decide to ever again think about this pesky democracy and freedom. Europe doesnt begin with Germany on the east, in fact russia is biggest european country based on land size. Ukraine, baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc would all be under direct threat because whatever made up reasons or twisted history (for some pretty hilarious reasons they chosen "nazis" ignoring the fact that in Russia neonazis are by far the biggest group in whole Europe, and do get quiet support from state itself). There is no limit to russian apetite. The idea that if Ukraine would fell in few days they would stop forever and just be happy with achievement is dangerously naïve. Currently its a state run by mobsters who understand only mobster logic - power, rule of stronger and deterrence. If they could have whole Europe, why not? Obviously they can't seeing how ineffective their army is, but the apetite of big egos is endless
  - ailef 4y ago
    You are conflating Russia with the USSR. But besides that, how do you reconcile the fact that Russia is having difficulties defeating Ukraine but yet it would be a meaningful threat not to just one but to 10 or more states (baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc) which are also NATO members?
germandiago 4y ago
In that case yes and that is my whole point. It si not the same Poland or Spain. (geographically I mean now)

by tromp 4y ago

> I do not support wars or war involvement. If Russia comes knocking at your neighbour(ing country)'s doors, wouldn't you want to help them defend? Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after?

mantas 4y ago

Many people in West seem to be unable to grasp how awful it is to have a barbaric invader. And what they do even if you bend over and give up with no resistance because no war. For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up. Aside from standout examples in like Denmark in WW2. But that is extremely early occurrences.

germandiago 4y ago
> For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of talking in their name and that just want to leave in peace instead of being locked down in their country to fight, meaning their life is in the hands of others that force them to go to the war to kill each other. This is exactly what I am demanding from EU: do not decide in my name things that block trade, create energy scarcity and on top of that I have to finance. If someone is willing to fight this cause, of course the european bureaucrats the first ones, go fight in the war, but do not involve the rest of us. If some day they come to my door I will decide on that basis. It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country. By this measure we should all fighting each other all the time almost. I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? They would run away god knows where to hide god knows how much money from favors and a ton of things we might not know. A politician is probably the kind of person I trust the least. I am not talking about specifics. I say the profession. Most are bad.
- mantas 4y ago
  I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    My point is not that you are right or wrong. My point is that both kind of russians and ukranian exist that agree/disagree with other people's choices and they have to put their life in danger because someone else decided for them. Look how people are running away from Russia right now to not get recruited. I fiercely oppose to choices from others and consequences for a third one. If someone finds very important for their country, for their freedom or for whatever, no matter russian, ukranian or spanish, go get a weapon and contribute to the war. Do not count on me, but if someone wants to do it and puts their words where they put their choices, that is ok. Choosing for others, no, no and no. Never, ever. Over my dead body I would let someone send one of my relatives to a war because someone decided what is important or not for someone else.

ailef 4y ago

> Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after? This makes it looks like there is a real risk of Russia invading Germany or any other European country, while they are having difficulties already achieving their goals in Ukraine. In doing that you are also ignoring all the historical factors that contributed to that current situation, which are very specific to Ukraine and go back several decades, and buying into the US propaganda that Putin just went crazy and wants to conquer the whole of Europe for imperialistic goals.

trasz 4y ago
What factors are that?
saiya-jin 4y ago
You are completely incorrect. Russians waged a very similar war in 1956 in Hungary, for exactly same reasons. They killed everybody they wanted, installed very oppressive regime that stayed there for 30+ years. They also invaded my home country of (back then) Czechoslovakia, killed hundreds, and occupied for decades. Oppression, restrictions of basic freedoms, economy down the drain, basic things missing in shops. 200k soviet russian troops to shoot everybody if they decide to ever again think about this pesky democracy and freedom. Europe doesnt begin with Germany on the east, in fact russia is biggest european country based on land size. Ukraine, baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc would all be under direct threat because whatever made up reasons or twisted history (for some pretty hilarious reasons they chosen "nazis" ignoring the fact that in Russia neonazis are by far the biggest group in whole Europe, and do get quiet support from state itself). There is no limit to russian apetite. The idea that if Ukraine would fell in few days they would stop forever and just be happy with achievement is dangerously naïve. Currently its a state run by mobsters who understand only mobster logic - power, rule of stronger and deterrence. If they could have whole Europe, why not? Obviously they can't seeing how ineffective their army is, but the apetite of big egos is endless
- ailef 4y ago
  You are conflating Russia with the USSR. But besides that, how do you reconcile the fact that Russia is having difficulties defeating Ukraine but yet it would be a meaningful threat not to just one but to 10 or more states (baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc) which are also NATO members?

germandiago 4y ago

In that case yes and that is my whole point. It si not the same Poland or Spain. (geographically I mean now)