6 ms·

As an european here it is almost my obligation to remind every european of why we talk about the energy crisis (which is a fact, of course) and we never talk ab

As an european here it is almost my obligation to remind every european of why we talk about the energy crisis (which is a fact, of course) and we never talk about the causes and who decided that we should support one side or the other. I am against all this 4-bureaucrats-decide whether we enter a war or not, with the devastating consequences for energy and the nuclear risk at which they could potentially involve us in. The opinions about who is bad or good in this war, I do not care. I do not support wars or war involvement. Diplomacy. When you cannot with diplomacy and it is not really your duty, just stay away.

magic_hamster 4y ago
The ban is diplomacy.
- fit2rule 4y ago
tromp 4y ago
> I do not support wars or war involvement. If Russia comes knocking at your neighbour(ing country)'s doors, wouldn't you want to help them defend? Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after?
- mantas 4y ago
  Many people in West seem to be unable to grasp how awful it is to have a barbaric invader. And what they do even if you bend over and give up with no resistance because no war. For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up. Aside from standout examples in like Denmark in WW2. But that is extremely early occurrences.
  - germandiago 4y ago
    > For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of talking in their name and that just want to leave in peace instead of being locked down in their country to fight, meaning their life is in the hands of others that force them to go to the war to kill each other. This is exactly what I am demanding from EU: do not decide in my name things that block trade, create energy scarcity and on top of that I have to finance. If someone is willing to fight this cause, of course the european bureaucrats the first ones, go fight in the war, but do not involve the rest of us. If some day they come to my door I will decide on that basis. It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country. By this measure we should all fighting each other all the time almost. I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? They would run away god knows where to hide god knows how much money from favors and a ton of things we might not know. A politician is probably the kind of person I trust the least. I am not talking about specifics. I say the profession. Most are bad.
    - mantas 4y ago
      I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.
- ailef 4y ago
  > Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after? This makes it looks like there is a real risk of Russia invading Germany or any other European country, while they are having difficulties already achieving their goals in Ukraine. In doing that you are also ignoring all the historical factors that contributed to that current situation, which are very specific to Ukraine and go back several decades, and buying into the US propaganda that Putin just went crazy and wants to conquer the whole of Europe for imperialistic goals.
  - trasz 4y ago
    What factors are that?
  - saiya-jin 4y ago
    You are completely incorrect. Russians waged a very similar war in 1956 in Hungary, for exactly same reasons. They killed everybody they wanted, installed very oppressive regime that stayed there for 30+ years. They also invaded my home country of (back then) Czechoslovakia, killed hundreds, and occupied for decades. Oppression, restrictions of basic freedoms, economy down the drain, basic things missing in shops. 200k soviet russian troops to shoot everybody if they decide to ever again think about this pesky democracy and freedom. Europe doesnt begin with Germany on the east, in fact russia is biggest european country based on land size. Ukraine, baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc would all be under direct threat because whatever made up reasons or twisted history (for some pretty hilarious reasons they chosen "nazis" ignoring the fact that in Russia neonazis are by far the biggest group in whole Europe, and do get quiet support from state itself). There is no limit to russian apetite. The idea that if Ukraine would fell in few days they would stop forever and just be happy with achievement is dangerously naïve. Currently its a state run by mobsters who understand only mobster logic - power, rule of stronger and deterrence. If they could have whole Europe, why not? Obviously they can't seeing how ineffective their army is, but the apetite of big egos is endless
    - ailef 4y ago
      You are conflating Russia with the USSR. But besides that, how do you reconcile the fact that Russia is having difficulties defeating Ukraine but yet it would be a meaningful threat not to just one but to 10 or more states (baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc) which are also NATO members?
- germandiago 4y ago
  In that case yes and that is my whole point. It si not the same Poland or Spain. (geographically I mean now)
mantas 4y ago
How close the war has to get to not „just stay away“? Such approach just feeds aggressors to give it a shot. Because why not.
- germandiago 4y ago
  Look, sorry to be so bold on this comment, but if you want to fight, involve yourself, you can enlist yourself and go there, no matter the side you choose. Some of us do not want to be in risk because of the decisions of others. I think it is a very reasonable approach. By that measure we have to go to all wars where there is some cause to fight for wherever they happen. That just feeds violence and strengthens states and reduces freedom (bc there are excuses to put all kind of restrictions depending on how bad the situation they created gets), something I am not very keen on. I know I will get negatives for saying this, but it is just my honest opinion. You want something, you work for it. Want war? Go to war, want peace? Be peaceful and diplomatic in the first place unless 100% self-defense is the only option. It is not fair to involve everyone else, less when the consequences can be seen already in the energy side. I hope it does not get worse with any nuclear stuff (I really think it will not happen) but this is unnecessary.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Had Ukraine fell in spring, my country was a likely next candidate. By helping Ukraine, we’re defending ourselves. The question is if you as a society want to be seen as a legitimate partner. After the war, Eastern Europe will have many questions to certain West countries. If you want to stick to no-war-above-all, then many countries won’t be able to trust you. What is an ally worth if you know he will bail at first sign of trouble? Personally I hope West societies will take a very good long look in the mirror. Or here in the East we will need a new Union.
    - idkwhoiam 4y ago
      Let's be honest here. Nobody is gonna put hundreds of millions of western European & American lives at risk to save 10 million of Eastern Europeans. The combined population of the three Baltic states is even less than 10mil. The idea of an Eastern Europe Union is laughable. Life in the post soviet countries has been getting better thanks to the EU. Had they not joined the EU they would still be poor countries like Moldova or Albania.
libertine 4y ago
>I am against all this 4-bureaucrats-decide whether we enter a war or not, with the devastating consequences for energy and the nuclear risk at which they could potentially involve us in. You seem to have a short memory when the invasion began and there was an uproar on plenty of major cities all over Europe - and we've seen no counter protests at the same time. So, clearly, it wasn't 4 bureaucrats.
- germandiago 4y ago
  Really? In Madrid? Come on... I am at the other side of Europe (not living there now though).I would buy you that Poland or Finland are more worried. But I do not want to be involved in unnecessary problems. This was something much more local than a 5-6000 km away thing... If something really wrong happens, how avout all of us that did not want to get involved? Diplomacy or nothing in this case. But there is much more to it... under the covers and you and I know it.
ghusto 4y ago
As a child, I left my country after a revolution, when it was clear people of my type were going to have a very bad time. That's one option. Let me tell you though, it's not a great option. Not having a country _sucks_, and I only realised how badly I had been disadvantaged my entire life once I grew up. Staying is also an option, but then you either have the aforementioned "very bad time", or you fight (and almost definitely die). Which shit-sandwich would you like? They all taste like shit, and you have to eat one. There is no diplomatic solution to a bullet to the head. In case it wasn't clear, by "very bad time", I'm talking about torture and murder.
jsnell 4y ago
The sanctions had extremely high public support. And not just passive support, byt pretty activen public demand; e.g. it seemed pretty obvious at the time that the German government was doing everything they could to avoid sanctions that could in any way impact the energy trade but the public uproar forced their hand. Just go and check the opinion polling from the time; it'll be like 80% in favor of full economic sanctions, while other survey questions make it clear that the respondents also know it will cause increases in energy prices. Here's a couple of examples to get started, but I'm sure you'll want to do your own research instead: [0] [1] And sure, there's variation by geography / proximity to russia. But it's nowhere near as strong an effect as you claim. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-heard/eurobarometer/2022/public-opinion-on-the-war-in-ukraine/en-public-opinion-on-the-war-in-ukraine-20220318.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-hear... [1] https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/api/deliverable/download/file?deliverableId=81594 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/api/deliverable/download/fil...

magic_hamster 4y ago

The ban is diplomacy.

fit2rule 4y ago

tromp 4y ago

> I do not support wars or war involvement. If Russia comes knocking at your neighbour(ing country)'s doors, wouldn't you want to help them defend? Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after?

mantas 4y ago
Many people in West seem to be unable to grasp how awful it is to have a barbaric invader. And what they do even if you bend over and give up with no resistance because no war. For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up. Aside from standout examples in like Denmark in WW2. But that is extremely early occurrences.
- germandiago 4y ago
  > For the defending side, in most cases war is the lesser evil compared to giving up You should ask this to every ukranian that goes to die there instead of talking in their name and that just want to leave in peace instead of being locked down in their country to fight, meaning their life is in the hands of others that force them to go to the war to kill each other. This is exactly what I am demanding from EU: do not decide in my name things that block trade, create energy scarcity and on top of that I have to finance. If someone is willing to fight this cause, of course the european bureaucrats the first ones, go fight in the war, but do not involve the rest of us. If some day they come to my door I will decide on that basis. It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country. By this measure we should all fighting each other all the time almost. I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? They would run away god knows where to hide god knows how much money from favors and a ton of things we might not know. A politician is probably the kind of person I trust the least. I am not talking about specifics. I say the profession. Most are bad.
  - mantas 4y ago
    I should have asked all those Ukrainian workers rushing back home in February to defend their homeland. But they seemed on a rush so I didn't bother them with stupid questions. „Living in peace“ in this case means running away some 5000km. When Russians come, living in peace doesn't work. And the initial plan was to go much further than Ukraine... Just check out the Putin's ultimatum to NATO to retreat to 1997 borders. > This is exactly what I am demanding from EU And I'm demanding the opposite. What are we going to do? > It seems there are a lot of excuses to get into a war that is over 5000 km away from my country Well, in my case we have border with old good Russia and some actions is going on 30km from my whereabouts. Maybe eastern european union, focusing on our realities, doesn't sound that laughable, huh? Because people 5000km away certainly don't understand a thing about stuff over here. Just like we probably don't get your problems. > I do not like to be involved into a nuclear risk being at the opposite side of Europe. This is all absurd, no matter the rest of the arguments that are made about how bad or good Putin or Ukraine are. You're involved wether you like it or not. Such is life beyond „end of history“. Just like it was for centuries. Non-involvement is just bending over for whatever comes. And when it's Russians coming, it ain't pretty... > They decide and we pay. Good arrangement! If these people had to pay with their personal wealth do you think they would do it? Putin and his gang are gamblers. They certainly risk their personal wealth/power/lifes. But the possible prize is too damn big to resist. And they ain't West-style politicians caring about pockets. They already have so much money their grandchildren won't be able to spend. They want old good power. And pages in history books.
ailef 4y ago
> Lest they come knocking on your door shortly after? This makes it looks like there is a real risk of Russia invading Germany or any other European country, while they are having difficulties already achieving their goals in Ukraine. In doing that you are also ignoring all the historical factors that contributed to that current situation, which are very specific to Ukraine and go back several decades, and buying into the US propaganda that Putin just went crazy and wants to conquer the whole of Europe for imperialistic goals.
- trasz 4y ago
  What factors are that?
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  You are completely incorrect. Russians waged a very similar war in 1956 in Hungary, for exactly same reasons. They killed everybody they wanted, installed very oppressive regime that stayed there for 30+ years. They also invaded my home country of (back then) Czechoslovakia, killed hundreds, and occupied for decades. Oppression, restrictions of basic freedoms, economy down the drain, basic things missing in shops. 200k soviet russian troops to shoot everybody if they decide to ever again think about this pesky democracy and freedom. Europe doesnt begin with Germany on the east, in fact russia is biggest european country based on land size. Ukraine, baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc would all be under direct threat because whatever made up reasons or twisted history (for some pretty hilarious reasons they chosen "nazis" ignoring the fact that in Russia neonazis are by far the biggest group in whole Europe, and do get quiet support from state itself). There is no limit to russian apetite. The idea that if Ukraine would fell in few days they would stop forever and just be happy with achievement is dangerously naïve. Currently its a state run by mobsters who understand only mobster logic - power, rule of stronger and deterrence. If they could have whole Europe, why not? Obviously they can't seeing how ineffective their army is, but the apetite of big egos is endless
  - ailef 4y ago
    You are conflating Russia with the USSR. But besides that, how do you reconcile the fact that Russia is having difficulties defeating Ukraine but yet it would be a meaningful threat not to just one but to 10 or more states (baltic states, V4 states, Romania, Bulgary, Finland etc) which are also NATO members?
germandiago 4y ago
In that case yes and that is my whole point. It si not the same Poland or Spain. (geographically I mean now)

mantas 4y ago

How close the war has to get to not „just stay away“? Such approach just feeds aggressors to give it a shot. Because why not.

germandiago 4y ago
Look, sorry to be so bold on this comment, but if you want to fight, involve yourself, you can enlist yourself and go there, no matter the side you choose. Some of us do not want to be in risk because of the decisions of others. I think it is a very reasonable approach. By that measure we have to go to all wars where there is some cause to fight for wherever they happen. That just feeds violence and strengthens states and reduces freedom (bc there are excuses to put all kind of restrictions depending on how bad the situation they created gets), something I am not very keen on. I know I will get negatives for saying this, but it is just my honest opinion. You want something, you work for it. Want war? Go to war, want peace? Be peaceful and diplomatic in the first place unless 100% self-defense is the only option. It is not fair to involve everyone else, less when the consequences can be seen already in the energy side. I hope it does not get worse with any nuclear stuff (I really think it will not happen) but this is unnecessary.
- mantas 4y ago
  Had Ukraine fell in spring, my country was a likely next candidate. By helping Ukraine, we’re defending ourselves. The question is if you as a society want to be seen as a legitimate partner. After the war, Eastern Europe will have many questions to certain West countries. If you want to stick to no-war-above-all, then many countries won’t be able to trust you. What is an ally worth if you know he will bail at first sign of trouble? Personally I hope West societies will take a very good long look in the mirror. Or here in the East we will need a new Union.
  - idkwhoiam 4y ago
    Let's be honest here. Nobody is gonna put hundreds of millions of western European & American lives at risk to save 10 million of Eastern Europeans. The combined population of the three Baltic states is even less than 10mil. The idea of an Eastern Europe Union is laughable. Life in the post soviet countries has been getting better thanks to the EU. Had they not joined the EU they would still be poor countries like Moldova or Albania.

libertine 4y ago

>I am against all this 4-bureaucrats-decide whether we enter a war or not, with the devastating consequences for energy and the nuclear risk at which they could potentially involve us in. You seem to have a short memory when the invasion began and there was an uproar on plenty of major cities all over Europe - and we've seen no counter protests at the same time. So, clearly, it wasn't 4 bureaucrats.

germandiago 4y ago
Really? In Madrid? Come on... I am at the other side of Europe (not living there now though).I would buy you that Poland or Finland are more worried. But I do not want to be involved in unnecessary problems. This was something much more local than a 5-6000 km away thing... If something really wrong happens, how avout all of us that did not want to get involved? Diplomacy or nothing in this case. But there is much more to it... under the covers and you and I know it.

ghusto 4y ago

As a child, I left my country after a revolution, when it was clear people of my type were going to have a very bad time. That's one option. Let me tell you though, it's not a great option. Not having a country _sucks_, and I only realised how badly I had been disadvantaged my entire life once I grew up. Staying is also an option, but then you either have the aforementioned "very bad time", or you fight (and almost definitely die). Which shit-sandwich would you like? They all taste like shit, and you have to eat one. There is no diplomatic solution to a bullet to the head. In case it wasn't clear, by "very bad time", I'm talking about torture and murder.

jsnell 4y ago

The sanctions had extremely high public support. And not just passive support, byt pretty activen public demand; e.g. it seemed pretty obvious at the time that the German government was doing everything they could to avoid sanctions that could in any way impact the energy trade but the public uproar forced their hand. Just go and check the opinion polling from the time; it'll be like 80% in favor of full economic sanctions, while other survey questions make it clear that the respondents also know it will cause increases in energy prices. Here's a couple of examples to get started, but I'm sure you'll want to do your own research instead: [0] [1] And sure, there's variation by geography / proximity to russia. But it's nowhere near as strong an effect as you claim. [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-heard/eurobarometer/2022/public-opinion-on-the-war-in-ukraine/en-public-opinion-on-the-war-in-ukraine-20220318.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/files/be-hear... [1] https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/api/deliverable/download/file?deliverableId=81594 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/api/deliverable/download/fil...