6 ms·

> We have learned to build reliable systems on "commodity" hardware. It is still cobbled together, and it still doesn't compare with what a mainframe can offer

by rahen 4y ago

> We have learned to build reliable systems on "commodity" hardware. It is still cobbled together, and it still doesn't compare with what a mainframe can offer in reliability, security, resource efficiency and technical debt. Mainframes are the original computers, if anything the microcomputers are more alien. They had virtual machines from the early 70s, Z/OS can still run code from the 360 and maybe even the 1401, and it still has far fewer vulnerabilities, part from obscurity, part from a smaller attack surface compared to general public systems like Linux. Nothing wrong with CICS and 3270 either, which you seem to call "menu based OS". These are extremely resource efficient presentation layers. Also, i and Z basically are turnkey systems. They require close to no sysadmin, you don't have to run after the latest update to fix the latest issue. How many vulnerabilities had to be patched in the 51 years of existence of the 3270 protocol? I would trust a mainframe a lot more than a cloud based, or worse, anything based on Linux or Kubernetes when it comes to reliability and security - in fact, I bet an app running on such a solution will be considered obsolete in a mere 15 years (if not 10). I've seen companies running their own internal mainframe classes just because there's no suitable alternative to replace them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dangus 4y ago
You might as well say that battle tanks are better than Toyota Corollas. I'm sure a battle tank is safer in an accident but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for a daily driver. The goal of a business is to produce as many outputs as possible with as few inputs as possible. If mainframes are so much better, why don't you own one? Why doesn't your company own one? I see a Z 2828 on eBay for $9,995, sounds like a pretty good deal! I know the Raspberry Pis that run my self-hosted services only cost me $200, but, like you said, you get what you pay for! Where the heck is my credit card!? Mainframes are a dying breed because they aren't a solution for 99.9% of businesses (yes, that's right, literally 99.9% of businesses have fewer than 500 employees). [1] By the time a new business has grown large enough to potentially benefit from a mainframe architecture, it has been using x86/ARM commodity computing for years/decades. The only way a business would ever choose mainframes would be if they were already gigantic businesses before microcomputers were invented and their business has a high amount of clerical overhead. This is why banks and airlines ended up with mainframes. Having the best, most resilient technology possible isn't the end goal of most businesses. The goal of a business is to sell things and make money. Computing is essentially a cost center where the lowest bidder wins, where the cheapest possible solution is always the best one as long as the level of risk is acceptable. [1] https://www.chamberofcommerce.org/small-business-statistics/ https://www.chamberofcommerce.org/small-business-statistics/
- rbanffy 4y ago
  > By the time a new business has grown large enough to potentially benefit from a mainframe architecture, it has been using x86/ARM commodity computing for years/decades. And this is why I say IBM is failing terribly in providing a simple onboarding ramp to these platforms. Almost nothing will scale as far up as a Z, but almost no company will need that and spending the money required by the entry level mainframe is a capital expense most companies won’t consider appealing.
  - neverartful 4y ago
    In my opinion, the marketing and legal group at IBM (for decades) must have this for their mission statement: "Let's see how quickly we can sink this business!". They're completely inept. Examples? - Customers: "Can we license z/OS, z/VM, and other IBM mainframe software to run on Hercules (mainframe emulator) for DR purposes?" IBM: "we'll sue your ass out of existence!" - POWER5 brought some pretty amazing virtualization technology allowing for 'micro LPARS' down to 1/10 of a CPU [0]. It's gotten even better since then. When and where have you ever heard about these capabilities? They're part of what used to be called APV (now branded as PowerVM) [1]. - At one time you could buy a used RS/6000 off of eBay (or from a reseller) and get a legal license (and media) for AIX. To do this today with modern Power systems, you have to first put the hardware under maintenance agreement. Oh, and if the server wasn't already under a maintenance agreement ('SWMA') (or there's been a lapse since it was under maintenance), you have to pay an additional fee ('ALF'). How much are these fees? SWMA estimate is $1800 PER YEAR. ALF estimate is $3200 (one time, unless you have a lapse in SWMA and need to do ALF again). Since Power8, you have to buy a separate HMC (nearly $2000) to configure LPARS. Net result is that it has become cost prohibitive for individuals to buy a second-hand POWER system and run latest AIX or i. - Want to get IBM's C or C++ compiler for AIX? There are 3 pricing options [2] available: $5780 per user, $17500 per concurrent user, or $88.60 per VPC per month. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-Partitioning [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVM [2] https://www.ibm.com/products/open-xl-cpp-aix-compiler-power/pricing
    - rbanffy 4y ago
neverartful 4y ago
"Also, i and Z basically are turnkey systems. They require close to no sysadmin ..." I think this is true and fitting for i, but not for Z.
- __d 4y ago
  The MVS systems I worked with had a small priesthood of sysops and sysprogs keeping them ticking. They certainly weren't set and forget.

by rahen 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dangus 4y ago

You might as well say that battle tanks are better than Toyota Corollas. I'm sure a battle tank is safer in an accident but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for a daily driver. The goal of a business is to produce as many outputs as possible with as few inputs as possible. If mainframes are so much better, why don't you own one? Why doesn't your company own one? I see a Z 2828 on eBay for $9,995, sounds like a pretty good deal! I know the Raspberry Pis that run my self-hosted services only cost me $200, but, like you said, you get what you pay for! Where the heck is my credit card!? Mainframes are a dying breed because they aren't a solution for 99.9% of businesses (yes, that's right, literally 99.9% of businesses have fewer than 500 employees). [1] By the time a new business has grown large enough to potentially benefit from a mainframe architecture, it has been using x86/ARM commodity computing for years/decades. The only way a business would ever choose mainframes would be if they were already gigantic businesses before microcomputers were invented and their business has a high amount of clerical overhead. This is why banks and airlines ended up with mainframes. Having the best, most resilient technology possible isn't the end goal of most businesses. The goal of a business is to sell things and make money. Computing is essentially a cost center where the lowest bidder wins, where the cheapest possible solution is always the best one as long as the level of risk is acceptable. [1] https://www.chamberofcommerce.org/small-business-statistics/ https://www.chamberofcommerce.org/small-business-statistics/

rbanffy 4y ago
> By the time a new business has grown large enough to potentially benefit from a mainframe architecture, it has been using x86/ARM commodity computing for years/decades. And this is why I say IBM is failing terribly in providing a simple onboarding ramp to these platforms. Almost nothing will scale as far up as a Z, but almost no company will need that and spending the money required by the entry level mainframe is a capital expense most companies won’t consider appealing.
- neverartful 4y ago
  In my opinion, the marketing and legal group at IBM (for decades) must have this for their mission statement: "Let's see how quickly we can sink this business!". They're completely inept. Examples? - Customers: "Can we license z/OS, z/VM, and other IBM mainframe software to run on Hercules (mainframe emulator) for DR purposes?" IBM: "we'll sue your ass out of existence!" - POWER5 brought some pretty amazing virtualization technology allowing for 'micro LPARS' down to 1/10 of a CPU [0]. It's gotten even better since then. When and where have you ever heard about these capabilities? They're part of what used to be called APV (now branded as PowerVM) [1]. - At one time you could buy a used RS/6000 off of eBay (or from a reseller) and get a legal license (and media) for AIX. To do this today with modern Power systems, you have to first put the hardware under maintenance agreement. Oh, and if the server wasn't already under a maintenance agreement ('SWMA') (or there's been a lapse since it was under maintenance), you have to pay an additional fee ('ALF'). How much are these fees? SWMA estimate is $1800 PER YEAR. ALF estimate is $3200 (one time, unless you have a lapse in SWMA and need to do ALF again). Since Power8, you have to buy a separate HMC (nearly $2000) to configure LPARS. Net result is that it has become cost prohibitive for individuals to buy a second-hand POWER system and run latest AIX or i. - Want to get IBM's C or C++ compiler for AIX? There are 3 pricing options [2] available: $5780 per user, $17500 per concurrent user, or $88.60 per VPC per month. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-Partitioning [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVM [2] https://www.ibm.com/products/open-xl-cpp-aix-compiler-power/pricing
  - rbanffy 4y ago

neverartful 4y ago

"Also, i and Z basically are turnkey systems. They require close to no sysadmin ..." I think this is true and fitting for i, but not for Z.

__d 4y ago
The MVS systems I worked with had a small priesthood of sysops and sysprogs keeping them ticking. They certainly weren't set and forget.