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>As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Generating electricity in a large gas power pl

>As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Generating electricity in a large gas power plant, transmitting that electricity over vast differences, and then turning that electricity into heat, motive power, or light is much, MUCH **MUUUUUUUCH** more efficient than piping gas all over the place and burning the gas in homes. By, like, a lot. With gas burners the vast majority of energy is wasted, blasted out into the ambient air. In a turbine it is almost all turned into whatever is desired. Once at the home immersed heating elements or inductive elements turn most of the electricity into what is desired. Transmission losses are irrelevantly small compared to the astronomically huge increases in efficiency of the endpoints. Same goes for cars. Even if power plants used gasoline, which they don’t, it would be more efficient to burn the gasoline to generate electricity in huge generators, transmit the electricity a thousand miles, and use it to charge batteries in EVs. If a house doesn’t have the capacity to switch to electric, subsidize improvements. If the grid can’t handle it, fix it. Don’t just throw up your hands and go “well we tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”

ars 4y ago
That is absolutely not true! Greater than 85% of the heat generated in a water heater, and 95% in a boiler is captured. For electricity it's closer to 60%. Your "vast majority" is completely backwards. Your info is utterly wrong about natural gas efficiency. > Don’t just throw up your hands and go “well we tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” That's better than doing things that are known to be worse. Like electric water heaters.
- rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  Whoever told you electric water heaters are 60% was either mistaken or a gas lobbyist. The minimum efficiency for electric water heaters, required by federal law, is 90%. Electric heat pump water heaters have efficiency ratings in excess of 100%, often over 200% when measured by the same standard as “traditional” heaters. https://smarterhouse.org/water-heating/replacing-your-water-heater https://smarterhouse.org/water-heating/replacing-your-water-...
  - ars 4y ago
    The efficiency of an electric plant is 60%. Many are as low as 45%. You have a serious blind spot, or wilful ignorance about natural gas vs electricity. A natural gas water heater easily eclipses any electric one. A heat pump water heater just barely is better, in some, warm climates, and only if you barely use water (their recovery rate is so low they basically only work in 2 person households). For most people it is NOT better.
    - rocket_surgeron 4y ago
      Ah I see you googled "efficiency of a gas power plant" and ran with the first result. Excellent! The efficiencies of gas power plants are not measured in the same way as water heaters and the two numbers are not comparable. It is also not because turbines generate more power. They do, but most vessel's speed is limited by physics, not the amount of oomph they can put into the screws. Think of it this way: if gas turbines were less efficient that boilers, why has every navy on the entire planet moved away from boilers? It ain't because maintenance is easier or costs are lower with turbines, that's for sure. Gas turbines compress the gas. They are much more efficient than dribbling gas out of an orifice at 1 ATM and getting a nice blue flame out of it. Also, good job ignoring the fact that you were wrong about water heater efficiency and then dismissing my correction and then immediately changing the thrust of your argument. It warms my heart to see that people never change. Finally, your information about heat pumps is extremely outdated, from the 80s or 90s, I'm assuming you're older and don't keep up with technological developments? (or are an oil and gas lobbyist)
      - dang 4y ago
        Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines? Personal attacks, name-calling, and snark are not ok on HN. Your comment here is stuffed with them. Seriously not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dahfizz 4y ago
> Generating electricity in a large gas power plant, transmitting that electricity over vast differences, and then turning that electricity into heat, motive power, or light is much, MUCH *MUUUUUUUCH* more efficient than piping gas all over the place and burning the gas in homes. > By, like, a lot. Source?? Modern gas furnaces are 95% efficient. So only 5% of the energy in the fuel is lost. You lose around 5% of your energy just transmitting electricity from the power plant to the home, let alone the pitiful performance of the turbine. [1] https://iwae.com/resources/articles/95-afue-gas-furnace-work.html https://iwae.com/resources/articles/95-afue-gas-furnace-work... [2] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3
- rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  That’s gas marketing bullshit. The AFUE rating for electric baseboard heating is 100. The AFUE for heat pumps CAN EXCEED 100. The MOST efficient gas water heaters use 11.9MMBtu/yr. The LEAST efficient electric water heaters use 8.9MMBtu/yr. The MOST efficient electric heat pump water heaters use 4.2MMBtu/yr. Converting gas into BTUs by burning it in a power plant and transmitting it to a home is much better than burning it in the home. Energy Efficiency Design Options for Residential Water Heaters: Economic Impacts on Consumers Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory Environmental Energy Technologies Division https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1016713 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1016713
  - ars 4y ago
    > Converting gas into BTUs by burning it in a power plant and transmitting it to a home is much better than burning it in the home. This is utterly false, as multiple people, and multiple sources of data have shown you. At this point you either have to update your knowledge and accept reality, or acknowledge that you are being willfully ignorant, and quit making false statements.
  - pandaman 4y ago
    I understand you believe this, but can you explain this discrepancy between the water heaters? I figure by the least efficient electric heater you mean a resistive one, so it's close to 100% efficiency, right? There are plenty 90% and 95% AFUE gas heaters on the market, let's say 90% is the most efficient so it should be using 1.1x more energy than a 100% efficient resistive heater but in your numbers the gas heater uses 1.33x more energy. I.e. you claim the most efficient gas heater is 75% AFUE? I don't think these are even legal to sell in the US any more.

ars 4y ago

That is absolutely not true! Greater than 85% of the heat generated in a water heater, and 95% in a boiler is captured. For electricity it's closer to 60%. Your "vast majority" is completely backwards. Your info is utterly wrong about natural gas efficiency. > Don’t just throw up your hands and go “well we tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” That's better than doing things that are known to be worse. Like electric water heaters.

rocket_surgeron 4y ago
Whoever told you electric water heaters are 60% was either mistaken or a gas lobbyist. The minimum efficiency for electric water heaters, required by federal law, is 90%. Electric heat pump water heaters have efficiency ratings in excess of 100%, often over 200% when measured by the same standard as “traditional” heaters. https://smarterhouse.org/water-heating/replacing-your-water-heater https://smarterhouse.org/water-heating/replacing-your-water-...
- ars 4y ago
  The efficiency of an electric plant is 60%. Many are as low as 45%. You have a serious blind spot, or wilful ignorance about natural gas vs electricity. A natural gas water heater easily eclipses any electric one. A heat pump water heater just barely is better, in some, warm climates, and only if you barely use water (their recovery rate is so low they basically only work in 2 person households). For most people it is NOT better.
  - rocket_surgeron 4y ago
    Ah I see you googled "efficiency of a gas power plant" and ran with the first result. Excellent! The efficiencies of gas power plants are not measured in the same way as water heaters and the two numbers are not comparable. It is also not because turbines generate more power. They do, but most vessel's speed is limited by physics, not the amount of oomph they can put into the screws. Think of it this way: if gas turbines were less efficient that boilers, why has every navy on the entire planet moved away from boilers? It ain't because maintenance is easier or costs are lower with turbines, that's for sure. Gas turbines compress the gas. They are much more efficient than dribbling gas out of an orifice at 1 ATM and getting a nice blue flame out of it. Also, good job ignoring the fact that you were wrong about water heater efficiency and then dismissing my correction and then immediately changing the thrust of your argument. It warms my heart to see that people never change. Finally, your information about heat pumps is extremely outdated, from the 80s or 90s, I'm assuming you're older and don't keep up with technological developments? (or are an oil and gas lobbyist)
    - dang 4y ago
      Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines? Personal attacks, name-calling, and snark are not ok on HN. Your comment here is stuffed with them. Seriously not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dahfizz 4y ago

> Generating electricity in a large gas power plant, transmitting that electricity over vast differences, and then turning that electricity into heat, motive power, or light is much, MUCH *MUUUUUUUCH* more efficient than piping gas all over the place and burning the gas in homes. > By, like, a lot. Source?? Modern gas furnaces are 95% efficient. So only 5% of the energy in the fuel is lost. You lose around 5% of your energy just transmitting electricity from the power plant to the home, let alone the pitiful performance of the turbine. [1] https://iwae.com/resources/articles/95-afue-gas-furnace-work.html https://iwae.com/resources/articles/95-afue-gas-furnace-work... [2] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

rocket_surgeron 4y ago
That’s gas marketing bullshit. The AFUE rating for electric baseboard heating is 100. The AFUE for heat pumps CAN EXCEED 100. The MOST efficient gas water heaters use 11.9MMBtu/yr. The LEAST efficient electric water heaters use 8.9MMBtu/yr. The MOST efficient electric heat pump water heaters use 4.2MMBtu/yr. Converting gas into BTUs by burning it in a power plant and transmitting it to a home is much better than burning it in the home. Energy Efficiency Design Options for Residential Water Heaters: Economic Impacts on Consumers Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory Environmental Energy Technologies Division https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1016713 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1016713
- ars 4y ago
  > Converting gas into BTUs by burning it in a power plant and transmitting it to a home is much better than burning it in the home. This is utterly false, as multiple people, and multiple sources of data have shown you. At this point you either have to update your knowledge and accept reality, or acknowledge that you are being willfully ignorant, and quit making false statements.
- pandaman 4y ago
  I understand you believe this, but can you explain this discrepancy between the water heaters? I figure by the least efficient electric heater you mean a resistive one, so it's close to 100% efficiency, right? There are plenty 90% and 95% AFUE gas heaters on the market, let's say 90% is the most efficient so it should be using 1.1x more energy than a 100% efficient resistive heater but in your numbers the gas heater uses 1.33x more energy. I.e. you claim the most efficient gas heater is 75% AFUE? I don't think these are even legal to sell in the US any more.