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The drug using thieves are basically mentally ill and usually have felony records preventing most jobs from hiring them. Even in a tight labor market, a meth us

The drug using thieves are basically mentally ill and usually have felony records preventing most jobs from hiring them. Even in a tight labor market, a meth user with three dozen convictions isn’t going to get a job. Maybe we need a public works program to pay the to sweep the streets or pick up trash but that’s beside the point. They were never upstanding or employable member of society. The change is that previously they were kept to a bare minimum. Now laws have changed which permit and allow them to do as they please. I agree if your point is that they’re doing the best option they see for themselves—but I blame voters for radically changing the consequences and incentives to it all. If you’re addicted to fentanyl, yeah going around committing theft and shitting in public places probably seems like a great idea. It’s the responsibility of the rest of society to not allow that—but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner. All this proves to me is that the road to hell is paved in good intentions.

_8j50 4y ago
I agree with the need for consequences but what I don't agree with is filling up prisons. The US incarcerates its people more than any other country on the whole planet as it is. I mean, drug use always consistently goes up despite harsh penalties for it. I am all for a well thought out solution. For example you can decriminalize all drugs so long as you take the hard drugs under medical supervision. You can make dealing certain drugs outside of approved outlets a very hard crime (30+ years to life for things like heroine and fentanyl). Also your comment about having them only pick up trash or something menial is interesting because unless you are paying them a lot of moneu that won't happen. There is plenty of construction that should be happening in california where these people can help (after rehab of course), all this land being hit with drought can perhaps be converted to support manufacturing? Also, why is there no "outsourcing" tax? If apple is making all of its iphones overseas, tax the crap out of them to subsidize employers who are hiring undesirable workers at a livable wage (unless you support UBI). My solution is to force the coastal rich liberals to invest their money in the central valley or lose it anyways by way of taxation. Everyone is saying "rich liberals" but you just don't have millions of millionaires voting to make those props happen. It is usually people who make under 150k that get in line with this thinking. Prison is simply a waste of money and human potential. But for crimes with an actual victim like theft, I agree with you that there needs to be a consequence. Perhaps fines where if you can't pay with money you do forced labor? "Community service" is already there. From what I have seen many social issues like this can be fixed with housing as well. More housing means cheaper housing (that you have to oay for, not free). Give everyone involved an incentive to contribute to society and become a healthy human being basically. I have no idea why bakersfield and fresno are not filled with high rise condos and there isn't a fast rail/train to the coastal cities for the transplants that can't afford to live there (and solve those cities' homeless issues as well). The one consistent thing I am seeing in cali is there isn't enough innovation, building things, repurposing things. I blame a lot of this on california being such a nice place to live everyone resists change that might affect that (NIMBYism is one such resistance). Specifically central valley though: they're about as tolerant to outsiders as rural texas from what I've seen. Again, competition for resources makes people be hostile and disteustful of each other which contributes to resistance to solutions. I agree with you about good intentions but the same can be said about laziness and complaining. If Prop 46/47 suck, let's talk about a better way to do things without paying any attention to left/right wing party-line policies. Thanks for your insight, I feel like I have a better perspective on the complexity of the problems now.
- diogenescynic 4y ago
  The problem with Prop 46/47 is that it only went halfway in some ways (decriminalizing drugs, but not mandating rehab if you're using drugs in public) and too far in others (legalizing theft). You hear progressives talk about how European countries decriminalized drugs and have more permissive drug laws--but you can't sit in public in the Netherlands or Portugal or any of those countries. If you are using drugs in a public space, they put you in mandatory rehab and assign you a social worker. You are also not allowed to steal... My problem is the toxic combination of legalizing hard drugs and theft, and then compounding it with allowing camping in public AND no cash bail. There are no consequences any more. Not every criminal is Aladdin and just needs to be talked to... many of them are actually bad/dangerous people who need to be removed from the public for the safety of others. For example, there have been several men who grope and sexually assault and stalk women in SF that the cops do nothing about--I think I saw a thread the other day where over 70 women had said the same guy had assaulted them and SFPD had done nothing. This is absurd and should not be tolerated. I think a missing piece if obviously Universal Healthcare and again--this is why I blame democrats for being incompetent and deceitful--they went through an entire pandemic where not even the left-most members of the party advocate for Universal Healthcare. Democrats legalize drugs and theft and camping in public spaces--but they do nothing about access to healthcare, raising wages, etc. The neoliberals and PMCs who took over the party have made it a right wing party--they abandoned actual leftist policies. Meanwhile, they feign support for banning stock trading then Obama neutered the Stock Act which allows Pelosi (and 80 or so other democrats and 100 or so republicans) to continue insider trading. Democrats are as much of a problem as republicans on all these issues. >From what I have seen many social issues like this can be fixed with housing as well. More housing means cheaper housing (that you have to oay for, not free). Give everyone involved an incentive to contribute to society and become a healthy human being basically. Housing first policies don't work. In SF and Seattle and Portland, a lot of the "homeless" are actually housed individuals in SROs or other public housing but since they don't have jobs they just hang out not the street and do drugs and steal. This is what I mean about democrats being incompetent. There should be an agreement we'll give you housing but you will lose it if you continue being a criminal. >Specifically central valley though: they're about as tolerant to outsiders as rural texas from what I've seen Hard disagree. There are a ton of first generation Mexican and other Central Americans there and lots of first/second/third generation Vietnamese and more frequently Indians/Pakistanis. I get the vibe from your comments you've only actually passed through these towns and not actually spent real time there.

_8j50 4y ago

I agree with the need for consequences but what I don't agree with is filling up prisons. The US incarcerates its people more than any other country on the whole planet as it is. I mean, drug use always consistently goes up despite harsh penalties for it. I am all for a well thought out solution. For example you can decriminalize all drugs so long as you take the hard drugs under medical supervision. You can make dealing certain drugs outside of approved outlets a very hard crime (30+ years to life for things like heroine and fentanyl). Also your comment about having them only pick up trash or something menial is interesting because unless you are paying them a lot of moneu that won't happen. There is plenty of construction that should be happening in california where these people can help (after rehab of course), all this land being hit with drought can perhaps be converted to support manufacturing? Also, why is there no "outsourcing" tax? If apple is making all of its iphones overseas, tax the crap out of them to subsidize employers who are hiring undesirable workers at a livable wage (unless you support UBI). My solution is to force the coastal rich liberals to invest their money in the central valley or lose it anyways by way of taxation. Everyone is saying "rich liberals" but you just don't have millions of millionaires voting to make those props happen. It is usually people who make under 150k that get in line with this thinking. Prison is simply a waste of money and human potential. But for crimes with an actual victim like theft, I agree with you that there needs to be a consequence. Perhaps fines where if you can't pay with money you do forced labor? "Community service" is already there. From what I have seen many social issues like this can be fixed with housing as well. More housing means cheaper housing (that you have to oay for, not free). Give everyone involved an incentive to contribute to society and become a healthy human being basically. I have no idea why bakersfield and fresno are not filled with high rise condos and there isn't a fast rail/train to the coastal cities for the transplants that can't afford to live there (and solve those cities' homeless issues as well). The one consistent thing I am seeing in cali is there isn't enough innovation, building things, repurposing things. I blame a lot of this on california being such a nice place to live everyone resists change that might affect that (NIMBYism is one such resistance). Specifically central valley though: they're about as tolerant to outsiders as rural texas from what I've seen. Again, competition for resources makes people be hostile and disteustful of each other which contributes to resistance to solutions. I agree with you about good intentions but the same can be said about laziness and complaining. If Prop 46/47 suck, let's talk about a better way to do things without paying any attention to left/right wing party-line policies. Thanks for your insight, I feel like I have a better perspective on the complexity of the problems now.

diogenescynic 4y ago
The problem with Prop 46/47 is that it only went halfway in some ways (decriminalizing drugs, but not mandating rehab if you're using drugs in public) and too far in others (legalizing theft). You hear progressives talk about how European countries decriminalized drugs and have more permissive drug laws--but you can't sit in public in the Netherlands or Portugal or any of those countries. If you are using drugs in a public space, they put you in mandatory rehab and assign you a social worker. You are also not allowed to steal... My problem is the toxic combination of legalizing hard drugs and theft, and then compounding it with allowing camping in public AND no cash bail. There are no consequences any more. Not every criminal is Aladdin and just needs to be talked to... many of them are actually bad/dangerous people who need to be removed from the public for the safety of others. For example, there have been several men who grope and sexually assault and stalk women in SF that the cops do nothing about--I think I saw a thread the other day where over 70 women had said the same guy had assaulted them and SFPD had done nothing. This is absurd and should not be tolerated. I think a missing piece if obviously Universal Healthcare and again--this is why I blame democrats for being incompetent and deceitful--they went through an entire pandemic where not even the left-most members of the party advocate for Universal Healthcare. Democrats legalize drugs and theft and camping in public spaces--but they do nothing about access to healthcare, raising wages, etc. The neoliberals and PMCs who took over the party have made it a right wing party--they abandoned actual leftist policies. Meanwhile, they feign support for banning stock trading then Obama neutered the Stock Act which allows Pelosi (and 80 or so other democrats and 100 or so republicans) to continue insider trading. Democrats are as much of a problem as republicans on all these issues. >From what I have seen many social issues like this can be fixed with housing as well. More housing means cheaper housing (that you have to oay for, not free). Give everyone involved an incentive to contribute to society and become a healthy human being basically. Housing first policies don't work. In SF and Seattle and Portland, a lot of the "homeless" are actually housed individuals in SROs or other public housing but since they don't have jobs they just hang out not the street and do drugs and steal. This is what I mean about democrats being incompetent. There should be an agreement we'll give you housing but you will lose it if you continue being a criminal. >Specifically central valley though: they're about as tolerant to outsiders as rural texas from what I've seen Hard disagree. There are a ton of first generation Mexican and other Central Americans there and lots of first/second/third generation Vietnamese and more frequently Indians/Pakistanis. I get the vibe from your comments you've only actually passed through these towns and not actually spent real time there.