4 ms·

>The US following China's lead. Quality of life in China is constantly improving. In US it isn’t. So no, US isn’t following China’s lead.

by trasz 4y ago

justinzollars 4y ago
not sure why this is being downvoted. China recently surpassed the US in life expectancy. But suppose you do not trust Chinese statistics; Mexico passed US life expectancy. Life expectancy a good measure for right track / wrong track.
- didericis 4y ago
  The US is definitely on the wrong track, but I think the more we think emulating China will “fix” things (especially under Xi), the worse things will get. Look at what we did with Covid. We had existing pandemic response strategies that were thrown out to mimic China, and we destroyed our economy, didn’t save anyone, and stunted child development. Sweden was much more rational and adhered to much saner western policies that we abandoned due to panic and false advertising from China. There are things about China worthy of emulation, like how easy it is (or was, not sure if this is still true) to set up factories, the cultural emphasis on hard work and education, the stronger generational family support networks, the sense of unity and cooperation and trust in authority. But there are also severe problems that China doesn’t talk about, many of which are side effects of some of the same things that are admirable when moderated, and extremely dysfunctional when under poor leadership.
  - trasz 4y ago
    US approach to COVID is pretty much the exact opposite to what China did. It follows from a fundamental difference in priorities - Chinese don’t want to die for somebody’s profits. I’m also not sure if fake news is an entire industry in China, like it is in US. And if it exists, it’s certainly not backed by the government, like Breitbart was. As for false advertising - look at how western media are pumping Chinese “housing crisis” where the reality is pretty much the opposite (https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1011211/the-winners-of-chinas-housing-bust-burnouts-and-beach-bums https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1011211/the-winners-of-chinas...) - it’s the west that has a terrible housing crisis; China has merely a housing investment crisis, which is a relatively minor problem to people.
- octoberfranklin 4y ago
  > Mexico passed US life expectancy. Where did you hear that? Everything I can find says the opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...
  - moistly 4y ago
    Everything you can find says the opposite? How odd! When I search “china usa life expectancy” on DDG I get a page that’s choc-a-bloc with headlines about the provisional CDC release that says all signs point toward US Covid death rates causing such a sharp drop in US median lifespans that China, already having shown stunning improvements this past few decades and recently nipping at the US’s heels, has now pulled ahead. Whew. Hard work. You’re welcome!
    - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
      Not who you're replying to, but: Mexico, not China
      - moistly 4y ago
        Oh fuck me. Sorry, octoberfranklin.
  - justinzollars 4y ago
    You are right! They have not passed us yet, but our life expectancy is going down, while theirs is going up; so this may happen down the road
didericis 4y ago
I’m not so sure about that… look at the demographic issues and the current banking collapse. China looks like it’s starting a pretty precipitous decline. I hope things stabilize and people there DO keep improving, I have no desire to see anywhere stagnate or start declining. But I’m also extremely aware of how much of the Chinese state apparatus is dedicated to lying and distorting public perception, and what I hear about what’s been going on behind the scenes sounds really bad right now.
moistly 4y ago
What you state is true and apparent to anyone who looks at the statistics. China has lifted billions of citizens out of desperate poverty over the past few decades. Over the same time period, middle-class wealth in the USA has been dropping and the poor have remained poor: in fact, most citizens have become less well-off. It is too bad that people afraid of uncomfortable truths have downvoted you. Facts: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/20/how-the-ame... https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l... https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/us-and-china-not-number-one https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/us-and-china-n...
- didericis 4y ago
  The uplift in China has been staggering and should be celebrated. A large part of that uplift is due to massive US investments. US leaders knowingly sacrificed a lot domestic industry in order to build up a China that we thought would liberalize and act to counterbalance the Soviet Union. What should have been a cause for solidarity and cohesion and mutual uplift, and was functioning that way until relatively recently, has turned sour. China is starting to stagnate drastically, and we have not managed to create the service economy in the US we thought could sustain the middle class in spite of the transfer. The demographic issues in China were created decades ago, as were the supply chain issues affecting the global economy. The massive real estate fraud also didn't help. Instead of actually working to productively address these issues, Xi has pumped up nationalistic rhetoric, is clamping down on business, and seems hell bent on returning to a Maoist cult of personality. These problems will not be addressed by chest pumping about which dysfunctional system is less dysfunctional, or which past glories are brightest. The present requires focus on the problems we have in front of us, and are best addressed with eyes wide open and a hard look at the practical problems in both the Chinese and US economies.
  - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    > The present requires focus on the problems we have in front of us, and are best addressed with eyes wide open and a hard look at the practical problems in both the Chinese and US economies. Which, unfortunately, seems to be the opposite of the direction that most politicians are going because real long term solutions are incompatible with tax cuts.
kwere 4y ago
chinese data is what the central gov want it to be or else bureaucrats get trimmed, making the next data survey compliance with central gov estimates. the farce is so big that in 2022, the gov asked to redo GDP calculations "honestly" to assess the real situation (cant find articles for now)[] []https://www.china-briefing.com/news/people-dont-trust-chinas-official-statistics/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/people-dont-trust-chinas... []https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampesek/2022/04/29/is-china-juicing-gdp-data-economists-cant-help-but-wonder/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampesek/2022/04/29/is-chin...

>The US following China's lead. Quality of life in China is constantly improving. In US it isn’t. So no, US isn’t following China’s lead.

by trasz 4y ago

>The US following China's lead. Quality of life in China is constantly improving. In US it isn’t. So no, US isn’t following China’s lead.

justinzollars 4y ago

not sure why this is being downvoted. China recently surpassed the US in life expectancy. But suppose you do not trust Chinese statistics; Mexico passed US life expectancy. Life expectancy a good measure for right track / wrong track.

didericis 4y ago
The US is definitely on the wrong track, but I think the more we think emulating China will “fix” things (especially under Xi), the worse things will get. Look at what we did with Covid. We had existing pandemic response strategies that were thrown out to mimic China, and we destroyed our economy, didn’t save anyone, and stunted child development. Sweden was much more rational and adhered to much saner western policies that we abandoned due to panic and false advertising from China. There are things about China worthy of emulation, like how easy it is (or was, not sure if this is still true) to set up factories, the cultural emphasis on hard work and education, the stronger generational family support networks, the sense of unity and cooperation and trust in authority. But there are also severe problems that China doesn’t talk about, many of which are side effects of some of the same things that are admirable when moderated, and extremely dysfunctional when under poor leadership.
- trasz 4y ago
  US approach to COVID is pretty much the exact opposite to what China did. It follows from a fundamental difference in priorities - Chinese don’t want to die for somebody’s profits. I’m also not sure if fake news is an entire industry in China, like it is in US. And if it exists, it’s certainly not backed by the government, like Breitbart was. As for false advertising - look at how western media are pumping Chinese “housing crisis” where the reality is pretty much the opposite (https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1011211/the-winners-of-chinas-housing-bust-burnouts-and-beach-bums https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1011211/the-winners-of-chinas...) - it’s the west that has a terrible housing crisis; China has merely a housing investment crisis, which is a relatively minor problem to people.
octoberfranklin 4y ago
> Mexico passed US life expectancy. Where did you hear that? Everything I can find says the opposite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...
- moistly 4y ago
  Everything you can find says the opposite? How odd! When I search “china usa life expectancy” on DDG I get a page that’s choc-a-bloc with headlines about the provisional CDC release that says all signs point toward US Covid death rates causing such a sharp drop in US median lifespans that China, already having shown stunning improvements this past few decades and recently nipping at the US’s heels, has now pulled ahead. Whew. Hard work. You’re welcome!
  - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    Not who you're replying to, but: Mexico, not China
    - moistly 4y ago
      Oh fuck me. Sorry, octoberfranklin.
- justinzollars 4y ago
  You are right! They have not passed us yet, but our life expectancy is going down, while theirs is going up; so this may happen down the road

didericis 4y ago

I’m not so sure about that… look at the demographic issues and the current banking collapse. China looks like it’s starting a pretty precipitous decline. I hope things stabilize and people there DO keep improving, I have no desire to see anywhere stagnate or start declining. But I’m also extremely aware of how much of the Chinese state apparatus is dedicated to lying and distorting public perception, and what I hear about what’s been going on behind the scenes sounds really bad right now.

moistly 4y ago

What you state is true and apparent to anyone who looks at the statistics. China has lifted billions of citizens out of desperate poverty over the past few decades. Over the same time period, middle-class wealth in the USA has been dropping and the poor have remained poor: in fact, most citizens have become less well-off. It is too bad that people afraid of uncomfortable truths have downvoted you. Facts: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/20/how-the-ame... https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/lifting-800-million-people-out-of-poverty-new-report-looks-at-lessons-from-china-s-experience https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2022/04/01/l... https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/us-and-china-not-number-one https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/us-and-china-n...

didericis 4y ago
The uplift in China has been staggering and should be celebrated. A large part of that uplift is due to massive US investments. US leaders knowingly sacrificed a lot domestic industry in order to build up a China that we thought would liberalize and act to counterbalance the Soviet Union. What should have been a cause for solidarity and cohesion and mutual uplift, and was functioning that way until relatively recently, has turned sour. China is starting to stagnate drastically, and we have not managed to create the service economy in the US we thought could sustain the middle class in spite of the transfer. The demographic issues in China were created decades ago, as were the supply chain issues affecting the global economy. The massive real estate fraud also didn't help. Instead of actually working to productively address these issues, Xi has pumped up nationalistic rhetoric, is clamping down on business, and seems hell bent on returning to a Maoist cult of personality. These problems will not be addressed by chest pumping about which dysfunctional system is less dysfunctional, or which past glories are brightest. The present requires focus on the problems we have in front of us, and are best addressed with eyes wide open and a hard look at the practical problems in both the Chinese and US economies.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  > The present requires focus on the problems we have in front of us, and are best addressed with eyes wide open and a hard look at the practical problems in both the Chinese and US economies. Which, unfortunately, seems to be the opposite of the direction that most politicians are going because real long term solutions are incompatible with tax cuts.

kwere 4y ago

chinese data is what the central gov want it to be or else bureaucrats get trimmed, making the next data survey compliance with central gov estimates. the farce is so big that in 2022, the gov asked to redo GDP calculations "honestly" to assess the real situation (cant find articles for now)[] []https://www.china-briefing.com/news/people-dont-trust-chinas-official-statistics/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/people-dont-trust-chinas... []https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampesek/2022/04/29/is-china-juicing-gdp-data-economists-cant-help-but-wonder/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampesek/2022/04/29/is-chin...