6 ms·

A nice idea but I don't see how this is going to work given the age of a lot of California houses. A good chunk of California houses built in the 20th Century

A nice idea but I don't see how this is going to work given the age of a lot of California houses. A good chunk of California houses built in the 20th Century don't have the upgraded electrical to make this a drop-in replacement. It's likely to move to an electric furnace or water heater most houses will have to drop in a new electrical panel and run a new to wire the furnace room. That's $2-3K right there before the cost of a furnace or water heater. Given that you'll almost certainly pull permits, you'll probably then discover that your current furnace room doesn't match current building code, costing even more money to fix, if it's even fixable.

egberts1 4y ago
Not to mention the ridiculous cost of the onerous permit needed from some non-self-sufficient government agency, notably in a state that is highly hostile toward new housings.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly and that's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - codefreeordie 4y ago
      There is nothing unsubstantiated.
      - dang 4y ago
        I'm talking about comment quality. Even if we assume you're right about everything, your comment was still the kind of sensational-indignant rhetoric that is so common on the internet, but which HN users are asked not to post here. We want thoughtful, curious conversation—an altogether different animal. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - egberts1 4y ago
        almost all true, except for your last part. “they” and “useless eaters” were only mentioned in Dr. John A. Coleman’s “300 Committee”, book page 105, and no place else. Almost had it.
alamortsubite 4y ago
I'd imagine most of those homes already have air conditioners. Aren't the electrical requirements of a mini-split pretty close to a couple window units? I'm pretty sure our five-head 12K BTU Mitsubishi is on a 15 amp double pole breaker.
- toast0 4y ago
  I have a small sample size, but I've lived in several dwellings in california with natural gas furnace, natural gas water heater and no a/c. If there were any window units, they were on 120vac.
fy20 4y ago
So what is the alternative here? Keep on using natural gas and ignore the effects it has on the environment and air quality? If California - one of the richest areas in the world, which for the most part has a very mild climate - cannot switch away from natural gas, how is anyone else expected to?
- ars 4y ago
  Yes, keep using natural gas. At least for now. As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Heat pumps at least help, but simply replacing with electric water heater and electric stoves actually hurts the environment more!
  - nullc 4y ago
    Almost all at-home gas usage is after the sun has gone down, as a result the vast majority of the electricity used for the alternative would be generated from natural gas not just 38%.
  - rocket_surgeron 4y ago
    >As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Generating electricity in a large gas power plant, transmitting that electricity over vast differences, and then turning that electricity into heat, motive power, or light is much, MUCH **MUUUUUUUCH** more efficient than piping gas all over the place and burning the gas in homes. By, like, a lot. With gas burners the vast majority of energy is wasted, blasted out into the ambient air. In a turbine it is almost all turned into whatever is desired. Once at the home immersed heating elements or inductive elements turn most of the electricity into what is desired. Transmission losses are irrelevantly small compared to the astronomically huge increases in efficiency of the endpoints. Same goes for cars. Even if power plants used gasoline, which they don’t, it would be more efficient to burn the gasoline to generate electricity in huge generators, transmit the electricity a thousand miles, and use it to charge batteries in EVs. If a house doesn’t have the capacity to switch to electric, subsidize improvements. If the grid can’t handle it, fix it. Don’t just throw up your hands and go “well we tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”
refurb 4y ago
Good point. My brother bought a house with a 100amp panel. Barely sufficient even when your running a gas furnace and stove. He paid something like $15,000 to upgrade to a 200amp panel. Not cheap.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  That cost is atypical. It’s usually $2-4k, and there are income based subsidies available in the Inflation Reduction Act (and no income limit if the panel upgraded is required as part of a rooftop solar install; it too is eligible for a 30% federal tax credit).
  - refurb 4y ago
    Atypical? Based on what? That's the normal cost to rewire a house and upgrade service in California unless you're talking about some podunk town in the Central Valley. This ain't the mid-West.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Just had a friend have the work done an hour out of Sacramento for the price I mentioned. I’m aware of the California tax, but $15k wildly deviates from the median unless your utility is requiring a service entrance upgrade under concrete.
  - hansvm 4y ago
    It costs $3-5k for an electrician in that part of the country to get off their arse and sign off on an already completed installation. Throw in the permitting procedure and everything else involved, and I'm moderately surprised it's so cheap. There's a reason such a high percentage of homes in the area have illegal lofts/porches/bedrooms/stoves/....
rdtwo 4y ago
They will mandate these in essence. Force everyone that’s renting to go heat pump. That’s the cheapest retrofit https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rheem-introduces-120-volt-proterra-plug-in-heat-pump-water-heaters-301587523.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rheem-introduces-12...
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  This looks cool. Does it need direct access to air from outside, or can it suck the heat out of the air in the garage?
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    It’s more efficient in a garage or basement but you can put it in the house it will just fight your heater in the winter

egberts1 4y ago

Not to mention the ridiculous cost of the onerous permit needed from some non-self-sufficient government agency, notably in a state that is highly hostile toward new housings.

codefreeordie 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly and that's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    There is nothing unsubstantiated.
    - dang 4y ago
      I'm talking about comment quality. Even if we assume you're right about everything, your comment was still the kind of sensational-indignant rhetoric that is so common on the internet, but which HN users are asked not to post here. We want thoughtful, curious conversation—an altogether different animal. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - egberts1 4y ago
      almost all true, except for your last part. “they” and “useless eaters” were only mentioned in Dr. John A. Coleman’s “300 Committee”, book page 105, and no place else. Almost had it.

alamortsubite 4y ago

I'd imagine most of those homes already have air conditioners. Aren't the electrical requirements of a mini-split pretty close to a couple window units? I'm pretty sure our five-head 12K BTU Mitsubishi is on a 15 amp double pole breaker.

toast0 4y ago
I have a small sample size, but I've lived in several dwellings in california with natural gas furnace, natural gas water heater and no a/c. If there were any window units, they were on 120vac.

fy20 4y ago

So what is the alternative here? Keep on using natural gas and ignore the effects it has on the environment and air quality? If California - one of the richest areas in the world, which for the most part has a very mild climate - cannot switch away from natural gas, how is anyone else expected to?

ars 4y ago
Yes, keep using natural gas. At least for now. As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Heat pumps at least help, but simply replacing with electric water heater and electric stoves actually hurts the environment more!
- nullc 4y ago
  Almost all at-home gas usage is after the sun has gone down, as a result the vast majority of the electricity used for the alternative would be generated from natural gas not just 38%.
- rocket_surgeron 4y ago
  >As long as 38% of electricity is being generated from natural gas, banning natural gas usage in homes is silly. Generating electricity in a large gas power plant, transmitting that electricity over vast differences, and then turning that electricity into heat, motive power, or light is much, MUCH **MUUUUUUUCH** more efficient than piping gas all over the place and burning the gas in homes. By, like, a lot. With gas burners the vast majority of energy is wasted, blasted out into the ambient air. In a turbine it is almost all turned into whatever is desired. Once at the home immersed heating elements or inductive elements turn most of the electricity into what is desired. Transmission losses are irrelevantly small compared to the astronomically huge increases in efficiency of the endpoints. Same goes for cars. Even if power plants used gasoline, which they don’t, it would be more efficient to burn the gasoline to generate electricity in huge generators, transmit the electricity a thousand miles, and use it to charge batteries in EVs. If a house doesn’t have the capacity to switch to electric, subsidize improvements. If the grid can’t handle it, fix it. Don’t just throw up your hands and go “well we tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”

refurb 4y ago

Good point. My brother bought a house with a 100amp panel. Barely sufficient even when your running a gas furnace and stove. He paid something like $15,000 to upgrade to a 200amp panel. Not cheap.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
That cost is atypical. It’s usually $2-4k, and there are income based subsidies available in the Inflation Reduction Act (and no income limit if the panel upgraded is required as part of a rooftop solar install; it too is eligible for a 30% federal tax credit).
- refurb 4y ago
  Atypical? Based on what? That's the normal cost to rewire a house and upgrade service in California unless you're talking about some podunk town in the Central Valley. This ain't the mid-West.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Just had a friend have the work done an hour out of Sacramento for the price I mentioned. I’m aware of the California tax, but $15k wildly deviates from the median unless your utility is requiring a service entrance upgrade under concrete.
- hansvm 4y ago
  It costs $3-5k for an electrician in that part of the country to get off their arse and sign off on an already completed installation. Throw in the permitting procedure and everything else involved, and I'm moderately surprised it's so cheap. There's a reason such a high percentage of homes in the area have illegal lofts/porches/bedrooms/stoves/....

rdtwo 4y ago

They will mandate these in essence. Force everyone that’s renting to go heat pump. That’s the cheapest retrofit https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rheem-introduces-120-volt-proterra-plug-in-heat-pump-water-heaters-301587523.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/rheem-introduces-12...

rahimnathwani 4y ago
This looks cool. Does it need direct access to air from outside, or can it suck the heat out of the air in the garage?
- rdtwo 4y ago
  It’s more efficient in a garage or basement but you can put it in the house it will just fight your heater in the winter