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> Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It reall

by djleni 4y ago

> Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It really isn’t. What do you consider “adequate” protein consumption?

nu11ptr 4y ago
I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)
- djleni 4y ago
  You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
  - hilbertseries 4y ago
    Your recommendation is that people eat 18 tablespoons of peanut butter a day to get their protein?
    - djleni 4y ago
      Not at all. Just pointing out that 75g isn’t some breathtakingly large number to hit without meat. A wheat bread PB&J hits about 23G of protein with 4TBSP of peanut butter. White rice and tofu, the most boring meal I can think of already gets you to 14g or so. Hitting 150g of protein is really difficult and arguably a gross way to eat if you’re just eating meat anyways. That’s over TWO POUNDS of ground beef.
      - capitalsigma 4y ago
        The issue with the PB&J is that it's > 700 calories (440 just from the PB, call it 100 for a TBSP of jelly, probably 100-200 for the bread), whereas a grilled chicken breast might give you 30 G of protein with maybe 250 calories. If you were getting 150G of protein from PB alone, you would have to eat ~3.5k calories. Some more data points: * 150 g of protein from lentils: 1.9k * 150 g of protein from chickpeas: 2.9k * 150 g of protein from grilled chicken breast: 750 * 150 g of protein from whey powder: 675 * 150 g of protein from egg whites: 640 My experience is that I don't need to worry much about "getting meat in" when I'm bulking up, but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety -- I'll have as much as 200-230g per day on maybe 2400 total calories), it's really tough to hit without having a lot of lean meat in my diet.
        djleni 4y ago
        Okay I mostly agree with that. It’s difficult to lose weight while not eating meat and maintaining a high protein diet. But my point isn’t that, it’s that for an average person eating average calories it’s not difficult by any means to get enough protein. To be fair though, plant based protein powder is about 700 calories for 150g of protein too :)
        dixie_land 4y ago
        I think the point being made is about the "density" of protein per serving. Sure you can get 75 from PB but that would also give you diabetes, and excessive fat too. Same goes for plans, yes in powder form it's a few scoops but you probably would be way too stuffed if you eat the actual veggies.
        sieabah 4y ago
        The "average" American is obese, so I'm not sure we should be encouraging this inefficient source of protein.
        hombre_fatal 4y ago
        On the other hand, 95% of Americans don’t eat enough fiber, which means they aren’t getting any of the other benefits of plants like vitamins and antioxidants. I’d wager that’s much more important than the average muscleless flaboid getting 150g protein.
        neuralRiot 4y ago
        > but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety You need to cut down on broscience, To go into catabolic mode you need a hig caloric deficit for a long time combined with inactivity.
        capitalsigma 4y ago
        I do cut calories (I bulk at maybe 3500 and cut at maybe 2500), I'm mostly saying that I find it much easier to feel full on a very high protein diet. I also believe there is some research suggesting that you should err on the higher side of the acceptable range when in a deficit. I would be nervous eating 150 G of protein in an extended deficit, weighing ~175 lbs.
      - messe 4y ago
        4 tablespoons of peanut-butter on a sandwich? Isn’t that quite a lot? That’d cover a most of the bread without even having to spread it.
  - nomel 4y ago
    This is misleading, and demonstrated the complexities of meeting protein goals. Peanuts are not a complete protein [1]. If you ate 1kg of peanut protein a day, you would still be deficient. 1. https://www.livestrong.com/article/465113-is-peanut-butter-a-complete-protein/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/465113-is-peanut-butter-a...
    - hombre_fatal 4y ago
      I don’t get it. Even Google’s blurb for “are peanuts complete protein” points out that they are a complete source. Putting peanuts into Cronometer (nutrient tracker) also confirms they have all 8 essentials.
      - JeremyNT 4y ago
        Yeah, the complete protein thing is bunk. Most plants are "complete" but can be low in something. Eating more than one kind of plant is all your need to counter that - so a peanut butter sandwich should do the job. The sad truth is, though, that you'd end up with too many calories if you try to get all your protein from peanut butter sandwiches (unless you do some cardio to cancel it out).
- tomcam 4y ago
  How do you get the 100-150g?
  - nu11ptr 4y ago
    Lots of meat and egg whites
- inkyoto 4y ago
  > I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum) You ought not to give advice based on your personal pet theories (no offence implied). The daily protein requirements vary for different people (in what is generally considered as «healthy» population – as in not having specific metabolic disorders), and those requirements depends on a few important metrics: the daily energy expenditure and energy expenditure patterns. Different people also have varying complexions – more on that below. A person who engages in regular strenuous weight-lifting, body building or physical labour will have increased daily protein requirements to retain or to build up a muscle mass. A person adhering to a modern urban lifestyle (as in: commuting to and from work, running errands, light walking etc) will not require the same amount of protein as the former group. Now, human bodies are self-regulating molucule cleaving machineries, and they will process protein according to their needs as per the body's own feedback loop. In complete protein, only 2x amino acids are ketogenic with the rest being glucogenic yielding a ketone or a glucose molecule during the digestion, respectively. Since the body can't store protein, for any excess amount of protein that has not been used for the muscle tissue growth or «maintenance», the body will cleave the amino group and remove it via kidneys whereas the cleaved glucose from the glucogenic amino acids will be eventually sent into the adipose tissue and deposited there as pure fat. The current consensus is that daily protein requirements are in the 0.7g ÷ 1g of protein per 1kg of the body weight range (although the jury is still out on the exact ratio). Therefore, your advice to consume at least 75g of protein daily for a person who does not engage in any strenuous physical activities and is 165 cm tall and 55 kg of weight (and the number of such people is significant across the human population) will result only in one thing: them getting fat. Which is why the unnecessary over-consumption of protein is just as counterproductive as overconsuming any other calorie dense foodstuffs. Also, as the metabolism rate slows down with the age, continuing to over-consume protein will result in such people getting obese and acquiring further secondary health disorders. This is also why many bodybuilders who stop excercising later in their life become either fat or overweight fairly quickly: you can beat the laws of biochemistry.
dixie_land 4y ago
1 gram per lb of body weight
- djleni 4y ago
  Might be more than you need: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak... But regardless, not hard to hit with legumes and soy and nuts and meat replacements like Impossible.
DangitBobby 4y ago
The big difference is you actually have to actually pay attention to your protein intake. If you just eat meat all the time, you can be pretty confident you'll get enough protein with maybe a tiny bit of supplementation. Convenience, in a word.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Seems like a weird comparison though since you’re comparing a diet that is defined by its incidental protein source (meat-eaters) vs one that is not and then suggesting that it’s more convenient to already be in the group that incidentally consumes protein. It’s begging the question. All a vegan has to do is include any protein source in their diet, like become a bean eater.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    I personally have to take care to eat extra protein. I didn't really when I still ate neat.

by djleni 4y ago

nu11ptr 4y ago

I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)

djleni 4y ago
You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
- hilbertseries 4y ago
  Your recommendation is that people eat 18 tablespoons of peanut butter a day to get their protein?
  - djleni 4y ago
    Not at all. Just pointing out that 75g isn’t some breathtakingly large number to hit without meat. A wheat bread PB&J hits about 23G of protein with 4TBSP of peanut butter. White rice and tofu, the most boring meal I can think of already gets you to 14g or so. Hitting 150g of protein is really difficult and arguably a gross way to eat if you’re just eating meat anyways. That’s over TWO POUNDS of ground beef.
    - capitalsigma 4y ago
      The issue with the PB&J is that it's > 700 calories (440 just from the PB, call it 100 for a TBSP of jelly, probably 100-200 for the bread), whereas a grilled chicken breast might give you 30 G of protein with maybe 250 calories. If you were getting 150G of protein from PB alone, you would have to eat ~3.5k calories. Some more data points: * 150 g of protein from lentils: 1.9k * 150 g of protein from chickpeas: 2.9k * 150 g of protein from grilled chicken breast: 750 * 150 g of protein from whey powder: 675 * 150 g of protein from egg whites: 640 My experience is that I don't need to worry much about "getting meat in" when I'm bulking up, but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety -- I'll have as much as 200-230g per day on maybe 2400 total calories), it's really tough to hit without having a lot of lean meat in my diet.
      - djleni 4y ago
        Okay I mostly agree with that. It’s difficult to lose weight while not eating meat and maintaining a high protein diet. But my point isn’t that, it’s that for an average person eating average calories it’s not difficult by any means to get enough protein. To be fair though, plant based protein powder is about 700 calories for 150g of protein too :)
        dixie_land 4y ago
        I think the point being made is about the "density" of protein per serving. Sure you can get 75 from PB but that would also give you diabetes, and excessive fat too. Same goes for plans, yes in powder form it's a few scoops but you probably would be way too stuffed if you eat the actual veggies.
        sieabah 4y ago
        The "average" American is obese, so I'm not sure we should be encouraging this inefficient source of protein.
        hombre_fatal 4y ago
        On the other hand, 95% of Americans don’t eat enough fiber, which means they aren’t getting any of the other benefits of plants like vitamins and antioxidants. I’d wager that’s much more important than the average muscleless flaboid getting 150g protein.
      - neuralRiot 4y ago
        > but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety You need to cut down on broscience, To go into catabolic mode you need a hig caloric deficit for a long time combined with inactivity.
        capitalsigma 4y ago
        I do cut calories (I bulk at maybe 3500 and cut at maybe 2500), I'm mostly saying that I find it much easier to feel full on a very high protein diet. I also believe there is some research suggesting that you should err on the higher side of the acceptable range when in a deficit. I would be nervous eating 150 G of protein in an extended deficit, weighing ~175 lbs.
    - messe 4y ago
      4 tablespoons of peanut-butter on a sandwich? Isn’t that quite a lot? That’d cover a most of the bread without even having to spread it.
- nomel 4y ago
  This is misleading, and demonstrated the complexities of meeting protein goals. Peanuts are not a complete protein [1]. If you ate 1kg of peanut protein a day, you would still be deficient. 1. https://www.livestrong.com/article/465113-is-peanut-butter-a-complete-protein/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/465113-is-peanut-butter-a...
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    I don’t get it. Even Google’s blurb for “are peanuts complete protein” points out that they are a complete source. Putting peanuts into Cronometer (nutrient tracker) also confirms they have all 8 essentials.
    - JeremyNT 4y ago
      Yeah, the complete protein thing is bunk. Most plants are "complete" but can be low in something. Eating more than one kind of plant is all your need to counter that - so a peanut butter sandwich should do the job. The sad truth is, though, that you'd end up with too many calories if you try to get all your protein from peanut butter sandwiches (unless you do some cardio to cancel it out).
tomcam 4y ago
How do you get the 100-150g?
- nu11ptr 4y ago
  Lots of meat and egg whites
inkyoto 4y ago
> I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum) You ought not to give advice based on your personal pet theories (no offence implied). The daily protein requirements vary for different people (in what is generally considered as «healthy» population – as in not having specific metabolic disorders), and those requirements depends on a few important metrics: the daily energy expenditure and energy expenditure patterns. Different people also have varying complexions – more on that below. A person who engages in regular strenuous weight-lifting, body building or physical labour will have increased daily protein requirements to retain or to build up a muscle mass. A person adhering to a modern urban lifestyle (as in: commuting to and from work, running errands, light walking etc) will not require the same amount of protein as the former group. Now, human bodies are self-regulating molucule cleaving machineries, and they will process protein according to their needs as per the body's own feedback loop. In complete protein, only 2x amino acids are ketogenic with the rest being glucogenic yielding a ketone or a glucose molecule during the digestion, respectively. Since the body can't store protein, for any excess amount of protein that has not been used for the muscle tissue growth or «maintenance», the body will cleave the amino group and remove it via kidneys whereas the cleaved glucose from the glucogenic amino acids will be eventually sent into the adipose tissue and deposited there as pure fat. The current consensus is that daily protein requirements are in the 0.7g ÷ 1g of protein per 1kg of the body weight range (although the jury is still out on the exact ratio). Therefore, your advice to consume at least 75g of protein daily for a person who does not engage in any strenuous physical activities and is 165 cm tall and 55 kg of weight (and the number of such people is significant across the human population) will result only in one thing: them getting fat. Which is why the unnecessary over-consumption of protein is just as counterproductive as overconsuming any other calorie dense foodstuffs. Also, as the metabolism rate slows down with the age, continuing to over-consume protein will result in such people getting obese and acquiring further secondary health disorders. This is also why many bodybuilders who stop excercising later in their life become either fat or overweight fairly quickly: you can beat the laws of biochemistry.

dixie_land 4y ago

1 gram per lb of body weight

djleni 4y ago
Might be more than you need: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak... But regardless, not hard to hit with legumes and soy and nuts and meat replacements like Impossible.

DangitBobby 4y ago

The big difference is you actually have to actually pay attention to your protein intake. If you just eat meat all the time, you can be pretty confident you'll get enough protein with maybe a tiny bit of supplementation. Convenience, in a word.

hombre_fatal 4y ago
Seems like a weird comparison though since you’re comparing a diet that is defined by its incidental protein source (meat-eaters) vs one that is not and then suggesting that it’s more convenient to already be in the group that incidentally consumes protein. It’s begging the question. All a vegan has to do is include any protein source in their diet, like become a bean eater.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  I personally have to take care to eat extra protein. I didn't really when I still ate neat.