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I will respectfully disagree, and at risk of downvotes, I think food science is a very difficult field due to difficulty getting good cohorts. Vegetarians and v

I will respectfully disagree, and at risk of downvotes, I think food science is a very difficult field due to difficulty getting good cohorts. Vegetarians and vegans tend to be very health conscience, but often studies lump "meat eaters" in with the same group who have a diet of highly processed foods and fast food. I would also disagree most diets are "unnecessarily meat centric". Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. It is of course possible, but would take conscious work most people would not take. I would bet most vegans have inadequate protein consumption. Lastly, Impossible burgers are NOT good for you. They are highly processed junk food. Take a look at the ingredients. Full of seed oils and other things that are simply not good for you. In summary, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I'm betting on a real food diet of meat, eggs, and vegetables. I shun processed foods 98% of the time and things with added sugar. I don't think it is terribly obvious what is the "best diet" and there are several conflicting studies, but eating a "real food" diet mostly avoiding "food product" strikes me as a reasonable bet.

djleni 4y ago
> Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It really isn’t. What do you consider “adequate” protein consumption?
- nu11ptr 4y ago
  I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)
  - djleni 4y ago
    You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
    - hilbertseries 4y ago
      Your recommendation is that people eat 18 tablespoons of peanut butter a day to get their protein?
      - djleni 4y ago
        Not at all. Just pointing out that 75g isn’t some breathtakingly large number to hit without meat. A wheat bread PB&J hits about 23G of protein with 4TBSP of peanut butter. White rice and tofu, the most boring meal I can think of already gets you to 14g or so. Hitting 150g of protein is really difficult and arguably a gross way to eat if you’re just eating meat anyways. That’s over TWO POUNDS of ground beef.
        capitalsigma 4y ago
        The issue with the PB&J is that it's > 700 calories (440 just from the PB, call it 100 for a TBSP of jelly, probably 100-200 for the bread), whereas a grilled chicken breast might give you 30 G of protein with maybe 250 calories. If you were getting 150G of protein from PB alone, you would have to eat ~3.5k calories. Some more data points: * 150 g of protein from lentils: 1.9k * 150 g of protein from chickpeas: 2.9k * 150 g of protein from grilled chicken breast: 750 * 150 g of protein from whey powder: 675 * 150 g of protein from egg whites: 640 My experience is that I don't need to worry much about "getting meat in" when I'm bulking up, but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety -- I'll have as much as 200-230g per day on maybe 2400 total calories), it's really tough to hit without having a lot of lean meat in my diet.
        djleni 4y ago
        Okay I mostly agree with that. It’s difficult to lose weight while not eating meat and maintaining a high protein diet. But my point isn’t that, it’s that for an average person eating average calories it’s not difficult by any means to get enough protein. To be fair though, plant based protein powder is about 700 calories for 150g of protein too :)
  - tomcam 4y ago
    How do you get the 100-150g?
    - nu11ptr 4y ago
      Lots of meat and egg whites
  - inkyoto 4y ago
    > I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum) You ought not to give advice based on your personal pet theories (no offence implied). The daily protein requirements vary for different people (in what is generally considered as «healthy» population – as in not having specific metabolic disorders), and those requirements depends on a few important metrics: the daily energy expenditure and energy expenditure patterns. Different people also have varying complexions – more on that below. A person who engages in regular strenuous weight-lifting, body building or physical labour will have increased daily protein requirements to retain or to build up a muscle mass. A person adhering to a modern urban lifestyle (as in: commuting to and from work, running errands, light walking etc) will not require the same amount of protein as the former group. Now, human bodies are self-regulating molucule cleaving machineries, and they will process protein according to their needs as per the body's own feedback loop. In complete protein, only 2x amino acids are ketogenic with the rest being glucogenic yielding a ketone or a glucose molecule during the digestion, respectively. Since the body can't store protein, for any excess amount of protein that has not been used for the muscle tissue growth or «maintenance», the body will cleave the amino group and remove it via kidneys whereas the cleaved glucose from the glucogenic amino acids will be eventually sent into the adipose tissue and deposited there as pure fat. The current consensus is that daily protein requirements are in the 0.7g ÷ 1g of protein per 1kg of the body weight range (although the jury is still out on the exact ratio). Therefore, your advice to consume at least 75g of protein daily for a person who does not engage in any strenuous physical activities and is 165 cm tall and 55 kg of weight (and the number of such people is significant across the human population) will result only in one thing: them getting fat. Which is why the unnecessary over-consumption of protein is just as counterproductive as overconsuming any other calorie dense foodstuffs. Also, as the metabolism rate slows down with the age, continuing to over-consume protein will result in such people getting obese and acquiring further secondary health disorders. This is also why many bodybuilders who stop excercising later in their life become either fat or overweight fairly quickly: you can beat the laws of biochemistry.
- dixie_land 4y ago
  1 gram per lb of body weight
  - djleni 4y ago
    Might be more than you need: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak... But regardless, not hard to hit with legumes and soy and nuts and meat replacements like Impossible.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  The big difference is you actually have to actually pay attention to your protein intake. If you just eat meat all the time, you can be pretty confident you'll get enough protein with maybe a tiny bit of supplementation. Convenience, in a word.
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    Seems like a weird comparison though since you’re comparing a diet that is defined by its incidental protein source (meat-eaters) vs one that is not and then suggesting that it’s more convenient to already be in the group that incidentally consumes protein. It’s begging the question. All a vegan has to do is include any protein source in their diet, like become a bean eater.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I personally have to take care to eat extra protein. I didn't really when I still ate neat.
prox 4y ago
What many people don’t do or know is that you don’t have to eat meat everyday. In fact once or twice a week is more than enough, unless you have a super strenuous physical job. That’s the best of both worlds without going all polarized for/against meat. Getting good meat sources (aka not from Brazil for instance) is a great second choice one can consciously make.
- dixie_land 4y ago
  what's wrong with Brazil
  - h0l0cube 4y ago
    Cattle (and crop production for cattle feed) in Brazil is decimating the Amazon
  - prox 4y ago
    Brazil is the world largest exporter of beef (mostly to the US) and it costs huge swathes of land, killing the rainforest plus more methane in the atmosphere. So it’s a double whammy when it comes to environmental costs. And lets not start talking about the main company behind it, feel free to research that. https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2019/july/brazil-once-again-becomes-the-world-s-largest-beef-exporter/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2019/july/brazil-once-a...
    - mc32 4y ago
      The largest importers of Brazilian beef are China and Hong Kong, with South Africa and the Middle East taking up the rearguard, not the USA. Surprisingly the second largest exporter of beef is India.
      - phunkay 4y ago
        It is prohibited to export beef from India at all [1]. Where did you learn that they are the second largest exporter? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India
jhbadger 4y ago
People say "it's hard to get adequate amounts of protein" as a vegetarian/vegan, but really people don't need the hundreds of grams of protein a day a typical meat eater gets. Just 50-60 grams a day is fine even by the USDA (which if anything has been criticized as being beholden to the US meat and dairy industries and as such that estimate is if anything an overestimate). It's really not that hard to get 50-60 grams of protein from non-animal sources without even trying.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  Anecdotally 50-60 grams protein is definitely not enough for me, I would guess people consuming that figure generally have very little lean body mass.
- nu11ptr 4y ago
  I do not think that is enough, and by the look of the body mass of most people I see, most don't get enough.
  - hombre_fatal 4y ago
    Most people don’t pump iron, especially not enough to gain any real bulk.
- tanaros 4y ago
  What are these meat eaters consuming that’s giving them hundreds of grams of protein per day? A 14oz ribeye is only 98 grams of protein and I hardly think typical meat eaters are consuming those for every meal.
  - nu11ptr 4y ago
    Only? That is one meal. Many eat three meals and snacks. Very easy to hit 150g of protein in a day consuming meat. There is a good comment below on the breakdowns.
    - netmonk 4y ago
rzimmerman 4y ago
I think you’re right that lumping anyone that eats meat at all into one big group hides the diversity there. It’s completely reasonable to eat a healthy diet with meat in it (lean chicken, fish, occasional beef, good sources of fiber and healthier fats, etc). It’s also possible to have a vegetarian diet that’s unhealthy. When I switched to being vegetarian my diet was very carb and cheese heavy at first. I don’t think people considering leaning vegetarian/vegan should worry about getting enough protein. Protein deficiency is rare and just including eggs and dairy in your diet is really enough to not worry about it. If you’re bodybuilding, sure, you need to supplement, but that’s true for a meat diet as well. Many millions people lead healthy lives without meat protein and without keeping track of anything. I think people curious should try a meat-free day or two a week and see how they feel. I was skeptical (growing up where every meal had a serving of meat) but it’s really not an issue. Full vegans need to make sure they’re getting the full range of protein types but it’s pretty easy if you have a diverse diet of grains, legumes, nuts, and other protein-rich foods. Basically don’t go in thinking vegan == “I only eat lettuce”! There’s lots of great, filling, protein-rich vegan food out there. Even a few vegan/veggie meals a week is a good thing. 100% agree impossible burgers are not good for you. Like real burgers they’re fine in moderation. My personal love for an impossible burger is that it satisfies a craving without causing harm to an animal. It doesn’t even need to be as good, just good enough to keep me from getting beef.
fsociety 4y ago
The seed oils are bad for you movement has been debunked again and again. For example https://www.consumerreports.org/healthy-eating/do-seed-oils-make-you-sick-a1363483895/ https://www.consumerreports.org/healthy-eating/do-seed-oils-...
- netmonk 4y ago
  This article is the illustration of circular thinking: Linoleic acid is called essential fatty acid, therefore it is essential... Nobody challenges how it was decided that it is essential. https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  That article doesn't "debunk" anything. Whether something can be healthy or not isn't "debunkable". It requires thought, time, and critical thinking.

djleni 4y ago

> Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It really isn’t. What do you consider “adequate” protein consumption?

nu11ptr 4y ago
I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)
- djleni 4y ago
  You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
  - hilbertseries 4y ago
    Your recommendation is that people eat 18 tablespoons of peanut butter a day to get their protein?
    - djleni 4y ago
      Not at all. Just pointing out that 75g isn’t some breathtakingly large number to hit without meat. A wheat bread PB&J hits about 23G of protein with 4TBSP of peanut butter. White rice and tofu, the most boring meal I can think of already gets you to 14g or so. Hitting 150g of protein is really difficult and arguably a gross way to eat if you’re just eating meat anyways. That’s over TWO POUNDS of ground beef.
      - capitalsigma 4y ago
        The issue with the PB&J is that it's > 700 calories (440 just from the PB, call it 100 for a TBSP of jelly, probably 100-200 for the bread), whereas a grilled chicken breast might give you 30 G of protein with maybe 250 calories. If you were getting 150G of protein from PB alone, you would have to eat ~3.5k calories. Some more data points: * 150 g of protein from lentils: 1.9k * 150 g of protein from chickpeas: 2.9k * 150 g of protein from grilled chicken breast: 750 * 150 g of protein from whey powder: 675 * 150 g of protein from egg whites: 640 My experience is that I don't need to worry much about "getting meat in" when I'm bulking up, but when I'm cutting calories to lose weight (and trying to keep protein extra high in order to maintain lean mass/increase satiety -- I'll have as much as 200-230g per day on maybe 2400 total calories), it's really tough to hit without having a lot of lean meat in my diet.
        djleni 4y ago
        Okay I mostly agree with that. It’s difficult to lose weight while not eating meat and maintaining a high protein diet. But my point isn’t that, it’s that for an average person eating average calories it’s not difficult by any means to get enough protein. To be fair though, plant based protein powder is about 700 calories for 150g of protein too :)
- tomcam 4y ago
  How do you get the 100-150g?
  - nu11ptr 4y ago
    Lots of meat and egg whites
- inkyoto 4y ago
  > I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum) You ought not to give advice based on your personal pet theories (no offence implied). The daily protein requirements vary for different people (in what is generally considered as «healthy» population – as in not having specific metabolic disorders), and those requirements depends on a few important metrics: the daily energy expenditure and energy expenditure patterns. Different people also have varying complexions – more on that below. A person who engages in regular strenuous weight-lifting, body building or physical labour will have increased daily protein requirements to retain or to build up a muscle mass. A person adhering to a modern urban lifestyle (as in: commuting to and from work, running errands, light walking etc) will not require the same amount of protein as the former group. Now, human bodies are self-regulating molucule cleaving machineries, and they will process protein according to their needs as per the body's own feedback loop. In complete protein, only 2x amino acids are ketogenic with the rest being glucogenic yielding a ketone or a glucose molecule during the digestion, respectively. Since the body can't store protein, for any excess amount of protein that has not been used for the muscle tissue growth or «maintenance», the body will cleave the amino group and remove it via kidneys whereas the cleaved glucose from the glucogenic amino acids will be eventually sent into the adipose tissue and deposited there as pure fat. The current consensus is that daily protein requirements are in the 0.7g ÷ 1g of protein per 1kg of the body weight range (although the jury is still out on the exact ratio). Therefore, your advice to consume at least 75g of protein daily for a person who does not engage in any strenuous physical activities and is 165 cm tall and 55 kg of weight (and the number of such people is significant across the human population) will result only in one thing: them getting fat. Which is why the unnecessary over-consumption of protein is just as counterproductive as overconsuming any other calorie dense foodstuffs. Also, as the metabolism rate slows down with the age, continuing to over-consume protein will result in such people getting obese and acquiring further secondary health disorders. This is also why many bodybuilders who stop excercising later in their life become either fat or overweight fairly quickly: you can beat the laws of biochemistry.
dixie_land 4y ago
1 gram per lb of body weight
- djleni 4y ago
  Might be more than you need: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/are-you-getting-too-much-protein https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speak... But regardless, not hard to hit with legumes and soy and nuts and meat replacements like Impossible.
DangitBobby 4y ago
The big difference is you actually have to actually pay attention to your protein intake. If you just eat meat all the time, you can be pretty confident you'll get enough protein with maybe a tiny bit of supplementation. Convenience, in a word.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Seems like a weird comparison though since you’re comparing a diet that is defined by its incidental protein source (meat-eaters) vs one that is not and then suggesting that it’s more convenient to already be in the group that incidentally consumes protein. It’s begging the question. All a vegan has to do is include any protein source in their diet, like become a bean eater.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    I personally have to take care to eat extra protein. I didn't really when I still ate neat.

prox 4y ago

What many people don’t do or know is that you don’t have to eat meat everyday. In fact once or twice a week is more than enough, unless you have a super strenuous physical job. That’s the best of both worlds without going all polarized for/against meat. Getting good meat sources (aka not from Brazil for instance) is a great second choice one can consciously make.

dixie_land 4y ago
what's wrong with Brazil
- h0l0cube 4y ago
  Cattle (and crop production for cattle feed) in Brazil is decimating the Amazon
- prox 4y ago
  Brazil is the world largest exporter of beef (mostly to the US) and it costs huge swathes of land, killing the rainforest plus more methane in the atmosphere. So it’s a double whammy when it comes to environmental costs. And lets not start talking about the main company behind it, feel free to research that. https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2019/july/brazil-once-again-becomes-the-world-s-largest-beef-exporter/ https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2019/july/brazil-once-a...
  - mc32 4y ago
    The largest importers of Brazilian beef are China and Hong Kong, with South Africa and the Middle East taking up the rearguard, not the USA. Surprisingly the second largest exporter of beef is India.
    - phunkay 4y ago
      It is prohibited to export beef from India at all [1]. Where did you learn that they are the second largest exporter? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India

jhbadger 4y ago

People say "it's hard to get adequate amounts of protein" as a vegetarian/vegan, but really people don't need the hundreds of grams of protein a day a typical meat eater gets. Just 50-60 grams a day is fine even by the USDA (which if anything has been criticized as being beholden to the US meat and dairy industries and as such that estimate is if anything an overestimate). It's really not that hard to get 50-60 grams of protein from non-animal sources without even trying.

Amezarak 4y ago
Anecdotally 50-60 grams protein is definitely not enough for me, I would guess people consuming that figure generally have very little lean body mass.
nu11ptr 4y ago
I do not think that is enough, and by the look of the body mass of most people I see, most don't get enough.
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  Most people don’t pump iron, especially not enough to gain any real bulk.
tanaros 4y ago
What are these meat eaters consuming that’s giving them hundreds of grams of protein per day? A 14oz ribeye is only 98 grams of protein and I hardly think typical meat eaters are consuming those for every meal.
- nu11ptr 4y ago
  Only? That is one meal. Many eat three meals and snacks. Very easy to hit 150g of protein in a day consuming meat. There is a good comment below on the breakdowns.
  - netmonk 4y ago

rzimmerman 4y ago

I think you’re right that lumping anyone that eats meat at all into one big group hides the diversity there. It’s completely reasonable to eat a healthy diet with meat in it (lean chicken, fish, occasional beef, good sources of fiber and healthier fats, etc). It’s also possible to have a vegetarian diet that’s unhealthy. When I switched to being vegetarian my diet was very carb and cheese heavy at first. I don’t think people considering leaning vegetarian/vegan should worry about getting enough protein. Protein deficiency is rare and just including eggs and dairy in your diet is really enough to not worry about it. If you’re bodybuilding, sure, you need to supplement, but that’s true for a meat diet as well. Many millions people lead healthy lives without meat protein and without keeping track of anything. I think people curious should try a meat-free day or two a week and see how they feel. I was skeptical (growing up where every meal had a serving of meat) but it’s really not an issue. Full vegans need to make sure they’re getting the full range of protein types but it’s pretty easy if you have a diverse diet of grains, legumes, nuts, and other protein-rich foods. Basically don’t go in thinking vegan == “I only eat lettuce”! There’s lots of great, filling, protein-rich vegan food out there. Even a few vegan/veggie meals a week is a good thing. 100% agree impossible burgers are not good for you. Like real burgers they’re fine in moderation. My personal love for an impossible burger is that it satisfies a craving without causing harm to an animal. It doesn’t even need to be as good, just good enough to keep me from getting beef.

fsociety 4y ago

The seed oils are bad for you movement has been debunked again and again. For example https://www.consumerreports.org/healthy-eating/do-seed-oils-make-you-sick-a1363483895/ https://www.consumerreports.org/healthy-eating/do-seed-oils-...

netmonk 4y ago
This article is the illustration of circular thinking: Linoleic acid is called essential fatty acid, therefore it is essential... Nobody challenges how it was decided that it is essential. https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
That article doesn't "debunk" anything. Whether something can be healthy or not isn't "debunkable". It requires thought, time, and critical thinking.