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> Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the govern

> Canada is generally regarded as a terrible place for startups, unfortunately. The laws are pretty restrictive towards "disruptive" technologies and the government always bends in favour of the existing players. What the heck are you talking about? Can you please provide some sources for this? Other than telecom and media I can't think of any space in the tech industry that the government is "restrictive" towards. In fact the Government has amazing programs for tech startups like SR&ED and IRAP, and you have amazing support systems like MaRS and Communitech in Ontario, with analogs in practically every province. The thing that makes Canada tough for startups is the lack of an established VC ecosystem. This is why you see quite a few bootstrapped Canadian startups, and only a few Canadian startups that go really big. But labour is significantly cheaper than in the US (especially when you factor in free healthcare), labour in Canada often has a more worldwide mix (because of a large immigrant population), you get awesome tax credits and incentives, and quality of life is near the top of the world. I'm not usually so jingoistic, but this one-off comment was really quite strange.

randomdata 15y ago
It's not exactly a one off comment. There was an article posted, I believe here, about the state of startups in Canada. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I do remember a few examples from it: * iCraveTV, a Canadian online video service, saw the government cave from US pressure to change Canadian laws regarding online video, which ultimately put them out of business. Later, a bunch of US-based startups entered the same space. * OpenText, a Canadian search engine, was unable to index the general web due to the law in Canada. While still successful in the corporate space, they could have been a player against Google and Bing if things had been different. * ZENN, a Canadian automobile manufacturer, is unable to sell their cars in Canada due to legislation. For comparison, Terrafugia, US-based company building a car/airplane hybrid has been able to change several laws in the US to allow them to enter the market. You can attribute the position these companies find themselves in down to management, but the political climate does not help matters. You can still build a decent business in Canada, but building something revolutionary is more easily accomplished by people of other countries.
rdouble 15y ago
Cheap labor isn't necessarily a win. It means the best engineers will use NAFTA to go work in the USA where they will be paid 2-3x as much. The last startup I worked for in the Bay Area had over half its engineering staff from Canada.
potatolicious 15y ago
Canadian expat here. You missed one thing: a dramatically smaller talent pool. The brain drain for coders from Canada to the USA is immense. It's not a trickle, it's a full-on broken dam. I'm making easily double here what I would in Canada, even if you account for tax and cost of living. Software engineers, in general, simply don't get paid well in Canada. The ease of securing a TN visa also means that there is effectively very little barrier to anyone who wants to bail to the south side of the border. I can't speak for everyone - but amongst myself and my other Canadian expat colleagues, a very large portion of the Canadian coder population that have the chops to get hired have left. What does this say about the talent pool that remains? That's not a great position to work from. Disclaimer: I am not at all claiming there aren't masterful coders in Canada, but rather that a lot of the wheat has left the country, leaving an extra heaping serving of chaff. The funny thing is, among my Canadian colleagues here in the US, it's almost universal to want to return to Canada. The health care is sane, society is more peaceful, and the quality of life is noticeably higher than just about any US city I've been to. Those conversations inevitably, and always, turn into us sitting around nursing beers, and wondering where in the hell we'd work in Canada that'd satisfy us professionally. Biggest software names in Canada? EA? SAP? RIM?! This is somewhat OT from the entrepreneurial side of the question, but also relevant. The job market in Canada has a lot of code monkey jobs, and not a lot of meaty software jobs that hackers crave. Much of the reason why there's such a huge drain of programmers from Canada to the US is not just the pay difference, but also professional satisfaction. I can't move home because almost nothing in Canada will present the level of challenge, the level of impact, that I can have here.
- geebee 15y ago
  Do you have any idea why coders are paid so much less? Is it because all professionals are paid less (ie., are lawyers, physicians, etc all paid less in Canada)? Or is this more of a regional pattern combined with a cost of living (ie., coders are paid less in Wisconsin than in California, but might live better on what they do earn)? Or is it maybe related to productivity, that coders in these concentrated areas are able to be so much more productive than they are elsewhere that they're simply creating more wealth... Anyway, would be interested in hearing the thoughts of a Canadian expat on this one.

randomdata 15y ago

It's not exactly a one off comment. There was an article posted, I believe here, about the state of startups in Canada. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but I do remember a few examples from it: * iCraveTV, a Canadian online video service, saw the government cave from US pressure to change Canadian laws regarding online video, which ultimately put them out of business. Later, a bunch of US-based startups entered the same space. * OpenText, a Canadian search engine, was unable to index the general web due to the law in Canada. While still successful in the corporate space, they could have been a player against Google and Bing if things had been different. * ZENN, a Canadian automobile manufacturer, is unable to sell their cars in Canada due to legislation. For comparison, Terrafugia, US-based company building a car/airplane hybrid has been able to change several laws in the US to allow them to enter the market. You can attribute the position these companies find themselves in down to management, but the political climate does not help matters. You can still build a decent business in Canada, but building something revolutionary is more easily accomplished by people of other countries.

rdouble 15y ago

Cheap labor isn't necessarily a win. It means the best engineers will use NAFTA to go work in the USA where they will be paid 2-3x as much. The last startup I worked for in the Bay Area had over half its engineering staff from Canada.

potatolicious 15y ago

Canadian expat here. You missed one thing: a dramatically smaller talent pool. The brain drain for coders from Canada to the USA is immense. It's not a trickle, it's a full-on broken dam. I'm making easily double here what I would in Canada, even if you account for tax and cost of living. Software engineers, in general, simply don't get paid well in Canada. The ease of securing a TN visa also means that there is effectively very little barrier to anyone who wants to bail to the south side of the border. I can't speak for everyone - but amongst myself and my other Canadian expat colleagues, a very large portion of the Canadian coder population that have the chops to get hired have left. What does this say about the talent pool that remains? That's not a great position to work from. Disclaimer: I am not at all claiming there aren't masterful coders in Canada, but rather that a lot of the wheat has left the country, leaving an extra heaping serving of chaff. The funny thing is, among my Canadian colleagues here in the US, it's almost universal to want to return to Canada. The health care is sane, society is more peaceful, and the quality of life is noticeably higher than just about any US city I've been to. Those conversations inevitably, and always, turn into us sitting around nursing beers, and wondering where in the hell we'd work in Canada that'd satisfy us professionally. Biggest software names in Canada? EA? SAP? RIM?! This is somewhat OT from the entrepreneurial side of the question, but also relevant. The job market in Canada has a lot of code monkey jobs, and not a lot of meaty software jobs that hackers crave. Much of the reason why there's such a huge drain of programmers from Canada to the US is not just the pay difference, but also professional satisfaction. I can't move home because almost nothing in Canada will present the level of challenge, the level of impact, that I can have here.

geebee 15y ago
Do you have any idea why coders are paid so much less? Is it because all professionals are paid less (ie., are lawyers, physicians, etc all paid less in Canada)? Or is this more of a regional pattern combined with a cost of living (ie., coders are paid less in Wisconsin than in California, but might live better on what they do earn)? Or is it maybe related to productivity, that coders in these concentrated areas are able to be so much more productive than they are elsewhere that they're simply creating more wealth... Anyway, would be interested in hearing the thoughts of a Canadian expat on this one.