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As someone who would want to be a vegan but struggles not to eat meat, I've been very interested in Impossible since it started. The idea that you might make sy

by typest 4y ago

As someone who would want to be a vegan but struggles not to eat meat, I've been very interested in Impossible since it started. The idea that you might make synthetic meat that tastes as good as real meat while being cheaper is very alluring -- seemingly, you could eliminate most meat consumption globally. At the same time, over the past few years, I've explored more of the world's cuisines and generally become a better cook. What I've learned (which surely is obvious to many but was not obvious to me) is that the typical US diet is unnecessarily meat centric, and that being a vegetarian is much easier, healthier, and tastier when one basically stops eating typical American meals. Being a vegetarian is much easier when eating Indian food for instance, and it's laughably easy when eating Ethiopian. I'm still rooting heavily for Impossible, because factory farming is a global atrocity. And, it would be really cool if one day, I could eat an Impossible burger that was cheaper and healthier than a regular burger. But for now, and for the foreseeable future, I think that my attempts to be vegetarian will revolve around learning to better cook food from non-American cuisines, foods that are better suited to not having meat.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago
bastawhiz 4y ago
> meat that tastes as good as real meat while being cheaper is very alluring Interestingly, it seems that every time I see an Impossible burger on a menu, it's not cheaper. Often it's more expensive, but usually roughly the same price. I'm not sure why this is, but it seems like it's probably holding folks back from eating it regularly.
- typest 4y ago
  I am really not that knowledgeable about this space, but I would imagine it's because A) there are a lot of subsidies for the meat industry, and B) there are a lot of economies of scale present in the meat industry that do not yet exist in alternative meat industries. Of course, it makes sense that when introducing a new product like this to the market, it is potentially going to be more expensive than existing products. It seems like, in theory, one should be able to make it much cheaper just because producing meat by way of animals is just very wasteful from an energy perspective. However, I have no clue what is required to synthesize such compounds without the use of animals, so I don't know how far away we are from being able to do this.
  - oezi 4y ago
    It just takes time to tilt the economies of scale. For soy milk it took 10 years from niche appearance in supermarkets to being cheaper than real milk.
    - antifa 4y ago
      I checked Kroger's website, which had some strange problems. You can't sort by lowest price and there are approximately 2.5k results for "milk". The "dietary preferences" filter does not include "lactose intolerant" or anything equivalent for milk alternatives, despite all milk alternatives being in the search results. The only one that looked genuinely useful (but not for me) was "Gluten free". That being said, I did a price check and found that soy milk was not cheaper than regular milk. Kroger milk is $3.29 for 1gal and soymilk is $2.59 for 0.5gal. https://i.imgur.com/6motDcj.png https://i.imgur.com/6motDcj.png
      - oezi 4y ago
        I am in Germany so I checked ALDI: 1 Liter of 3.5 Fat Milk = 0.99 EUR 1 Liter of unsweetened soy drink = 0.95 EUR
- SuperQue 4y ago
  I needed to source food for an event with 500 people. Burger meat was 0.80€ person for 125g, not organic/bio. But good quality from a German butcher. I got Beyond burgers for the veg option. Best price I could get wholesale was 2.00€ per person.
  - adaml_623 4y ago
    I feel the very fact that we need to refer to a brand name for the meat replacement is a clear indicator of how immature the market is.
  - rhdunn 4y ago
    You don't need to use a meat replacement for burgers. You can have various style burgers that I've seen for ~£2.25-£2.85 for 4, e.g.: - Bean (often spicy) - Halloumi - Parsnip & Carrot Nut - Plantlife Crunchy Vegetable Crispbake If you do want to use a meat substitute, I've found the following have comparable prices to the meat based versions at ~£2.00 for 2: - Linda McCartney's Burgers - Richmond Vegan Meat Free Other meat replacement brands (Beyond Meat, Moving Mountains, Fried Jackfruit, etc.) are dearer at ~£4.00-£4.50 for 2. I'm not sure how the wholesale prices compare, I just checked the prices on Waitrose's website. I've had several of these.
  - sillystuff 4y ago
    > I got Beyond burgers for the veg option. As someone who doesn't eat meat, I prefer not to have fake meat. I'll often just pass on eating anything if fake meat is the only non-meat option. A stir fry with rice or veggie fajitas (could be just peppers and onions) with Mexican tortillas possibly with a side of beans would be much preferable, and cost nearly nothing. Adjust for regional tastes. Easy to justify when it is something that can be a main dish for the non-meat eaters and a side dish for the meat eaters. But, if people are serving themselves, the non-meat item should be earlier on the table / separated from the meat, so meat eaters do not contaminate it with meat (common). Fake meat is a nice option for meat eaters who are trying to reduce their consumption of meat for $reason(s), but still crave meat. But, for folks like me who do not eat meat nor have any inclination to do so, it is kinda weird.
- rgblambda 4y ago
  Maybe it's for the same reason cinema ticket prices are the same for every movie. Price is a (often inaccurate) signal of quality. By lowering the price you are saying this product is inferior. On the other hand it could be because if restaurants have a similar product at a lower price, then customers might go for the cheaper option, thus reducing overall profits.
- bootlooped 4y ago
  I think demand is a big part of it. Vegetarians and vegans are willing to endure a lot of costs, financial and otherwise, to adhere to a special diet.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  It's more expensive because the cost of meat is heavily, heavily subsidized by the government (at least in the US). The actual cost to produce meat is much higher than Impossible or Beyond [1]. > The United States federal government spends $38 billion every year subsidizing the meat and dairy industries. Research from 2015 shows this subsidization reduces the price of Big Macs from $13 to $5 and the price of a pound of hamburger meat from $30 to the $5 we see today. 1. https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/ https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/
  - SamReidHughes 4y ago
    $38 billion is $100 per person. People eat a lot more than 4 pounds of meat per year, so this doesn’t compute, or it’s singling out some category of hamburger meat, while ignoring all others. Average meat consumption per person is 260 pounds, which would come out to about 40 cents per pound in subsidy.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      They gave the cost of two beef products before and after subsidies. There are a bunch of other types of meat that presumably are not as expensive per pound. According to this article, less than 1/3 of Americans' meat consumption is beef [1]. I don't know what the factors are, but there might be some reason in particular ground beef ends up taking a large share of the subsidies. I know what steak at the grocery store is quite expensive compared to ground beef, so maybe ground beef is targeted so lower income people can afford it while steak is not. Who knows. It would take more than napkin math to convince me that they're lying. 1. https://sentientmedia.org/meat-consumption-in-the-us/ https://sentientmedia.org/meat-consumption-in-the-us/
      - SamReidHughes 4y ago
        The source of this ridiculous $30->$5 number is linked from the article: https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... And it is given without a citation, and the document's authors are Directors/R&D/Tech Lead people at Samsung, VMWare, and Google. And: "This paper was created in an open classroom environment as part of a program within the Sutardja Center for Entrepreneurship & Technology" So it's just laundered fake research. The source of such a figure is surely going to be some reasoning like this, plus inflation, which cites the vast majority of "subsidy" being "healthcare costs": https://meatonomics.com/2013/08/15/each-time-mcdonalds-sells-a-big-mac-were-out-7/ https://meatonomics.com/2013/08/15/each-time-mcdonalds-sells... But without looking at the source, napkin math tells you at the very least the number is way out of whack, and at best it'd have been cherry-picked for the purpose of deception.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Often it's more expensive, but usually roughly the same price. I'm not sure why this is Because the scale of meat alternatives did not reach the scale of being cheaper yet...
happyopossum 4y ago
> The idea that you might make synthetic meat that tastes as good as real meat while being cheaper is very alluring This sounds like: “The idea that you might make synthetic fuel that has a higher energy density than petroleum while being cheaper is very alluring” Of course it sounds good - but reality isn’t that simple to twist to our desires. Impossible meat was more expensive (in spite of them running at a loss), didn’t taste as good, wasn’t any healthier, and by many accounts wasn’t any better environmentally. All downsides and no upside. I’m not surprised it fizzled out given those realities. Perhaps if they’d had another 5 years to perfect it before launching they could have overcome one or two of those deficits?
- azakai 4y ago
  > by many accounts wasn’t any better environmentally This is false according to every serious analysis I've seen. For example: > The most popular plant-based alternatives, Beyond [Meat] and Impossible Burgers, produce about 90 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions in comparison with beef [..] They reduce land use by at least 93 percent and water use by 87 percent to 99 percent. They also generate no manure pollution. https://www.rd.com/article/plant-based-meats/ https://www.rd.com/article/plant-based-meats/ Beef is by far the worst option (see the graph there); it isn't hard to beat.
  - Ntrails 4y ago
    I read articles like that and they talk about reducing land usage by not having cattle or sheep. How they cause groundwater pollution. Then I walk on the moors or the highlands with scattered livestock and I struggle. I believe the problem is mass production, factory farming, not meat. The issue is trying to keep meat insanely cheap such that it can be eaten every meal. I think if I source grass fed meat properly my impact is minimal. But. Maybe I am wrong!
    - progman32 4y ago
      Having viable meat substitutes is a path towards reducing the need for mass meat production.
brudgers 4y ago
With 370mg of sodium, it will never taste like an actual hamburger with only ground beef...it's about five times as much. That's part of what makes it taste good. And why it's just another processed food item. The US diet is more salt centric, more sugar centric, more fat centric, than meat centric.
- erulabs 4y ago
  As far as I've read, and I am not a doctor (although am married to one), it's the lack of fiber and huge amounts of sugar and salt that contributes to most of the health issues we North Americans face. Meat-replacements though are more about environmental causes (as this article points out). I think they would do tremendously better if they could argue that they were healthier options too. The milk-replacements are even worse in this regard. Oat milk seems healthier than cows milk somehow, until you realize it has 50% more sugar, twice the carbs, half the protein, and fewer nutrients. I really don't understand how alternative milks have positioned themselves as healthy and artificial meat somehow has not.
  - Klonoar 4y ago
    There are brands of Oat Milk that are better than others. I usually drink soy, but sometimes I want an oat milk latte and I find I have to ask the barista exactly what brand they’re using. At home I just use Elmhurst plant milks, which function fine as a base. Then again, this brand works for me because I’ve never used milk as a nutrient source - it’s just a flavor or texture.
  - brudgers 4y ago
    The marketing for meat replacement is about the environment. The actual product is pretty much Plinket’s pizza rolls. I mean your faux burger has added salt and fat to the intrinsic carbs. You can get oat milk without sugar and containing less sodium that cow’s milk…mild hypertension and type 2 diabetes: it’s what I put in my coffee. You can also make oat milk yourself pretty easily. Like everything with diet, it’s a matter of having the time.
  - tomcam 4y ago
solardev 4y ago
For what it's worth, there are some pretty decent "New American" recipes too, for lack of a better word. They are often vaguely inspired by ethnic fusion foods and then modified both for Americanness (more sugar, less spice, familiar seasonings, etc.) and vegetarianness. But they include everything from sandwiches to lasagnas to pot pies to chicken strips to meat loaves to chicken-fried steak to burritos to grain bowls and salads. Only very rarely do they use mock meats, but tofu, seitan (concentrated wheat protein), legumes/beans, and jackfruit are common. The trick, as you noticed, is to make the meal tasty as itself, not to make it pretend to be meat. You don't have to give up meat to enjoy those dishes once in a while, or as a side. If you eat out often, the HappyCow app is specifically for finding restaurants with good veggie options. It's free and super helpful whether you're in your home town or traveling. If you want to cook, there are a ton of purpose made vegan cookbooks. I personally like the quick and easy ones that emphasize meals under 20 minutes, vs the super fancy ones that take forever. Bon appetit.
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TaylorAlexander 4y ago
Something I’ve noticed about being vegan is the way the meals change. In a lot of American meat based meals, the meat is the center piece and everything else is peripheral. In a well made vegan meal, there is often no specific center piece. Instead, you get a multitude of flavors that all work together in complex ways. It can be really wonderful. I’d encourage anyone who eats meat every day to consider experimenting with periodic meat free days. I used to eat meat almost every meal but I’ve now quit entirely. I almost never eat meat substitutes but instead eat meals with a mixture of foods that all work together. It’s really lovely!
- colordrops 4y ago
  Totally agree. I find that I eat more mindfully and appreciate various ingredients and flavors to a greater degree.
- typest 4y ago
  Any cookbooks or recipes you recommend? How does one figure out which different pieces of the meal go together well?
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    This is a good question, but I don't work well with cookbooks. They tend to sit on my shelf closed. I learned by experimentation. I do know of one cookbook because I heard an interview with the author on the radio, called "Decolonize your diet" about traditional indigenous recipes from Mexico before the Spanish arrived and made everything about meat. The authors deserve support but for the curious it is also on library genesis. But I do a combination of looking online at vegan recipes and experimenting with stuff on my own. I make a lentil sweet potato curry that is really filling and delicious. Here is my recipe copied from a tweet I made about it: Large onion, chopped. ‘Sautee’ in water until partially clear. Add minced garlic and ginger paste. Sauté 2 more mins. Add curry powder, turmeric, any other spices, salt, pepper. Add can chopped tomatoes, 2-3 cups oat milk, 1.5 cup washed lentils, Add chopped large sweet potato, add a can of garbanzo beans, add a small can of chopped mushrooms (drained). Serve with brown rice. Can add raisins and nutritional yeast. Can get a sweet crunch adding candied nuts. I also find this lecture helpful for thinking about foods to experiment with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRrD58Ah3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRrD58Ah3Q You can also look for vegan or vegetarian restaurants in your area and try them, see what you like, and try to work with those foods. And look for different cultures like Indian food that focus on more vegetarian meals. Bon appetit!
nu11ptr 4y ago
I will respectfully disagree, and at risk of downvotes, I think food science is a very difficult field due to difficulty getting good cohorts. Vegetarians and vegans tend to be very health conscience, but often studies lump "meat eaters" in with the same group who have a diet of highly processed foods and fast food. I would also disagree most diets are "unnecessarily meat centric". Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. It is of course possible, but would take conscious work most people would not take. I would bet most vegans have inadequate protein consumption. Lastly, Impossible burgers are NOT good for you. They are highly processed junk food. Take a look at the ingredients. Full of seed oils and other things that are simply not good for you. In summary, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I'm betting on a real food diet of meat, eggs, and vegetables. I shun processed foods 98% of the time and things with added sugar. I don't think it is terribly obvious what is the "best diet" and there are several conflicting studies, but eating a "real food" diet mostly avoiding "food product" strikes me as a reasonable bet.
- djleni 4y ago
  > Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It really isn’t. What do you consider “adequate” protein consumption?
  - nu11ptr 4y ago
    I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)
    - djleni 4y ago
      You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
      - hilbertseries 4y ago
hardolaf 4y ago
My problem with all of these fake "meats" is that they don't taste like meats, they taste like vegetables and fruits that have been handled to the point of not being enjoyable to eat. I'd rather just eat well prepared and cooked vegetable dishes like what you can get in many nations and cultures around the world than these fake "meat" products.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  The fake meats are of course the epitome of ultra-processed food. Hallmarks of which are if fats, proteins, sugars are entirely reshaped in a way that does not happen in cooking.
buu700 4y ago
As someone who's been strictly keto for over a decade, it would be difficult for me to maintain my macros without meat, or a close substitute. (I would mirror nu11ptr's comments[1] as well.) As someone who finds mass murder and exploitation of other animals distasteful, I'm also constantly on the lookout for realistic alternatives. For a while, I really tried to make Beyond Meat work. I wasn't thrilled about introducing a highly processed food filled with low-quality fat (canola oil) as a daily staple, but the macros weren't terrible (although far from ideal). It worked for a few months, but one day it was like a switch had suddenly flipped in my head, and even the smell of cooking it was enough to make me gag. I haven't been able to stomach it ever since. Impossible is probably more workable in that regard, but the macros are even worse, it's also highly processed (arguably more so), and I'd be skeptical of using soy as my majority protein source due to the phytoestrogens. All that being said, I recently got a chance to try a "chicken cutlet" from Meati[2]. I would highly recommend it to anyone who isn't allergic. Summary: * Rather than imitating ground meats, they sell fake steaks and chicken cutlets. * Rather than a highly processed blend of ingredients, it's a whole food — just a particular species of mycelium (what they're branding as "mushroom root"), grown in molds to fit certain shapes then flavored and pressed to remove water. * Complete protein, 0g net carbs, good variety of (naturally occurring) micronutrients. If this matters to you, it's also low-fat. If I hadn't known otherwise, I would've assumed it was just a lean cut of chicken that had been marinated in some sort of mushroom sauce, and I'm saying this as someone who eats actual meat on a daily basis. From my perspective, Meati seems like the holy grail. It's good enough to convince me that cultured meat may turn out to be redundant. The current supply is too limited to use as a daily staple, but it's going to become my go-to protein as soon as they finish scaling up production. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964029 2: https://meati.com https://meati.com
- Klonoar 4y ago
  The estrogen concern with soy is fairly overblown and not really an issue. Anyway, another one to look out for is Juicy Marbles. Cannot wait to see these things get wider distribution.
  - 4y ago
damidekronik 4y ago
Ethiopian is an extremly underrated cousine. Both the distinct but simple taste of the "curries" and the unique flavour of the "pancake" which is traditionally used to eat (instead of cutlery) is a pleasant experience. Regardless of your diet please give it a try!
- tomcam 4y ago
  Kills me that Ethiopian restaurants are so hard to find here in Seattle. The other Washington, as in D.C., has several excellent ones. Get on the stick, people!
- speakfreely 4y ago
  The unusually nutritious spongey bread that's served with Ethiopian meals is called injera. If it's made from teff it's also gluten free.
dmix 4y ago
Being a vegetarian, or Mediterranean, or keto usually means you have to cook. Eating out in North America (Canada and Mexico too) is always full of meat. Even in nicer restaurants. Cooking at home regardless of your diet is the simplest way to eat better. I used to used Uber Eats 3-4 times a week and I got 10x healthier just making my own food and it's been a great way to get off social media and spend more time with people. People want to come over and socialize when you get good at cooking. Which is 10x better than getting into the 100th argument online.
- spfzero 4y ago
  Restaurants almost all use inferior fats, such as seed oils. It's rare to find one using real butter, decent olive oil, etc. They also generally buy their sauces and dressing from large industrial processors. If you are trying to avoid PUFAs, you need to cook your own meals.
- tomcam 4y ago
  One hack I used during my decades as a vegetarian was ordering side dishes, not entrees. Even in, maybe especially in, steak houses the non-meat entrees are often every bit as interesting as the main course.
isthisthingon99 4y ago
What is so difficult about pan frying a steak for 3 minutes on each side followed by 4 eggs, scrambled and some broccoli florets steamed in the microwave for 2 minutes?
- tomcam 4y ago
  I dunno about the broccoli prep, that doesn't sound so great... air fryer FTW. Much slower though.
  - isthisthingon99 4y ago
    yeah it kills some nutrients to nuke it but I need some fiber...
    - xboxnolifes 4y ago
      Does it? I was under the impression that microwaving food is actually one of the best ways to keep nutrients, compared to most other cooking methods.
      - isthisthingon99 4y ago
        I'm going to try this today: https://www.acouplecooks.com/fried-broccoli/ https://www.acouplecooks.com/fried-broccoli/ Edit: success
        tomcam 4y ago
        Ngl that looks awesome. Thanks for the pointer. I’m trying it too
hakfoo 4y ago
To me, that's the "where's the beef" moment. The meatless alternatives are usually more expensive than the cheapest real-meat options in the stores. While I suppose some of this is still "relatively early-stage firm versus entrenched industry that's spent the last century streamlining its operations", it means that it's still a conscious "I'm going out of my way to choose the meatless wonder" decision. Once it got cheap enough, I figured you'd start to see it widely adapted by food services as a way to stretch margins or compete more aggressively. Although I suspect this will be hindered by various product-labeling legal issues; they'll have to still be explicitly telling people "it's not beef" and that's going to shape customer expectations. I always liked the premise of selling vegetarian products as an economic choice rather than a moral one-- it avoids any direct personal values conflict by saying "You could try the McVeggie and save a buck on this meal."
akudha 4y ago
Produce is of lower quality in general, in the U.S. And also more expensive, compared to meat. I have never eaten meat in my life. Out of curiosity, I checked the prices of chicken vs produce. It was depressing to see how much chicken I can buy for the same price of 3 mangoes (current almost 3$ for a single mango in my area). I wish produce was subsidized instead of meat and dairy) or in addition to meat)
- antifa 4y ago
  We have huge meat subsidies, at the minimum, we should adjust that and let the market correct the pricing.
- ndiddy 4y ago
  Why are you using mangoes as your metric? You can get giant bags of frozen vegetables for a dollar or two.
  - akudha 4y ago
    That was just an example. I don’t eat frozen veggies, I don’t know about it. Almost all fresh produce is expensive, except bananas. Organic is even more expensive
- bolt7469 4y ago
  It depends what you mean by "produce." Beans are far cheaper than chicken and have a more similar dietary role than chicken vs mangoes.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
> synthetic meat that tastes as good as real meat I think if the technology takes off there is no reason that it cannot exceed the finest cuts of real meat in terms of taste.
diob 4y ago
For sure, I wish there were more Indian / Ethiopian restaurants around.
melagonster 4y ago
If it will be cheaper than meat, we don't need to do anything. We will find finding real meat is difficult.
wlecometo 4y ago
> As someone who would want to be a vegan but struggles not to eat meat going off topic, i think that being vegan/vegetarian for 5-6 days a week and one when you eat meat would still help .

by typest 4y ago

PM_me_your_math 4y ago

bastawhiz 4y ago

> meat that tastes as good as real meat while being cheaper is very alluring Interestingly, it seems that every time I see an Impossible burger on a menu, it's not cheaper. Often it's more expensive, but usually roughly the same price. I'm not sure why this is, but it seems like it's probably holding folks back from eating it regularly.

typest 4y ago
I am really not that knowledgeable about this space, but I would imagine it's because A) there are a lot of subsidies for the meat industry, and B) there are a lot of economies of scale present in the meat industry that do not yet exist in alternative meat industries. Of course, it makes sense that when introducing a new product like this to the market, it is potentially going to be more expensive than existing products. It seems like, in theory, one should be able to make it much cheaper just because producing meat by way of animals is just very wasteful from an energy perspective. However, I have no clue what is required to synthesize such compounds without the use of animals, so I don't know how far away we are from being able to do this.
- oezi 4y ago
  It just takes time to tilt the economies of scale. For soy milk it took 10 years from niche appearance in supermarkets to being cheaper than real milk.
  - antifa 4y ago
    I checked Kroger's website, which had some strange problems. You can't sort by lowest price and there are approximately 2.5k results for "milk". The "dietary preferences" filter does not include "lactose intolerant" or anything equivalent for milk alternatives, despite all milk alternatives being in the search results. The only one that looked genuinely useful (but not for me) was "Gluten free". That being said, I did a price check and found that soy milk was not cheaper than regular milk. Kroger milk is $3.29 for 1gal and soymilk is $2.59 for 0.5gal. https://i.imgur.com/6motDcj.png https://i.imgur.com/6motDcj.png
    - oezi 4y ago
      I am in Germany so I checked ALDI: 1 Liter of 3.5 Fat Milk = 0.99 EUR 1 Liter of unsweetened soy drink = 0.95 EUR
SuperQue 4y ago
I needed to source food for an event with 500 people. Burger meat was 0.80€ person for 125g, not organic/bio. But good quality from a German butcher. I got Beyond burgers for the veg option. Best price I could get wholesale was 2.00€ per person.
- adaml_623 4y ago
  I feel the very fact that we need to refer to a brand name for the meat replacement is a clear indicator of how immature the market is.
- rhdunn 4y ago
  You don't need to use a meat replacement for burgers. You can have various style burgers that I've seen for ~£2.25-£2.85 for 4, e.g.: - Bean (often spicy) - Halloumi - Parsnip & Carrot Nut - Plantlife Crunchy Vegetable Crispbake If you do want to use a meat substitute, I've found the following have comparable prices to the meat based versions at ~£2.00 for 2: - Linda McCartney's Burgers - Richmond Vegan Meat Free Other meat replacement brands (Beyond Meat, Moving Mountains, Fried Jackfruit, etc.) are dearer at ~£4.00-£4.50 for 2. I'm not sure how the wholesale prices compare, I just checked the prices on Waitrose's website. I've had several of these.
- sillystuff 4y ago
  > I got Beyond burgers for the veg option. As someone who doesn't eat meat, I prefer not to have fake meat. I'll often just pass on eating anything if fake meat is the only non-meat option. A stir fry with rice or veggie fajitas (could be just peppers and onions) with Mexican tortillas possibly with a side of beans would be much preferable, and cost nearly nothing. Adjust for regional tastes. Easy to justify when it is something that can be a main dish for the non-meat eaters and a side dish for the meat eaters. But, if people are serving themselves, the non-meat item should be earlier on the table / separated from the meat, so meat eaters do not contaminate it with meat (common). Fake meat is a nice option for meat eaters who are trying to reduce their consumption of meat for $reason(s), but still crave meat. But, for folks like me who do not eat meat nor have any inclination to do so, it is kinda weird.
rgblambda 4y ago
Maybe it's for the same reason cinema ticket prices are the same for every movie. Price is a (often inaccurate) signal of quality. By lowering the price you are saying this product is inferior. On the other hand it could be because if restaurants have a similar product at a lower price, then customers might go for the cheaper option, thus reducing overall profits.
bootlooped 4y ago
I think demand is a big part of it. Vegetarians and vegans are willing to endure a lot of costs, financial and otherwise, to adhere to a special diet.
DangitBobby 4y ago
It's more expensive because the cost of meat is heavily, heavily subsidized by the government (at least in the US). The actual cost to produce meat is much higher than Impossible or Beyond [1]. > The United States federal government spends $38 billion every year subsidizing the meat and dairy industries. Research from 2015 shows this subsidization reduces the price of Big Macs from $13 to $5 and the price of a pound of hamburger meat from $30 to the $5 we see today. 1. https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/ https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/
- SamReidHughes 4y ago
  $38 billion is $100 per person. People eat a lot more than 4 pounds of meat per year, so this doesn’t compute, or it’s singling out some category of hamburger meat, while ignoring all others. Average meat consumption per person is 260 pounds, which would come out to about 40 cents per pound in subsidy.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    They gave the cost of two beef products before and after subsidies. There are a bunch of other types of meat that presumably are not as expensive per pound. According to this article, less than 1/3 of Americans' meat consumption is beef [1]. I don't know what the factors are, but there might be some reason in particular ground beef ends up taking a large share of the subsidies. I know what steak at the grocery store is quite expensive compared to ground beef, so maybe ground beef is targeted so lower income people can afford it while steak is not. Who knows. It would take more than napkin math to convince me that they're lying. 1. https://sentientmedia.org/meat-consumption-in-the-us/ https://sentientmedia.org/meat-consumption-in-the-us/
    - SamReidHughes 4y ago
      The source of this ridiculous $30->$5 number is linked from the article: https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavi... And it is given without a citation, and the document's authors are Directors/R&D/Tech Lead people at Samsung, VMWare, and Google. And: "This paper was created in an open classroom environment as part of a program within the Sutardja Center for Entrepreneurship & Technology" So it's just laundered fake research. The source of such a figure is surely going to be some reasoning like this, plus inflation, which cites the vast majority of "subsidy" being "healthcare costs": https://meatonomics.com/2013/08/15/each-time-mcdonalds-sells-a-big-mac-were-out-7/ https://meatonomics.com/2013/08/15/each-time-mcdonalds-sells... But without looking at the source, napkin math tells you at the very least the number is way out of whack, and at best it'd have been cherry-picked for the purpose of deception.
unity1001 4y ago
> Often it's more expensive, but usually roughly the same price. I'm not sure why this is Because the scale of meat alternatives did not reach the scale of being cheaper yet...

happyopossum 4y ago

> The idea that you might make synthetic meat that tastes as good as real meat while being cheaper is very alluring This sounds like: “The idea that you might make synthetic fuel that has a higher energy density than petroleum while being cheaper is very alluring” Of course it sounds good - but reality isn’t that simple to twist to our desires. Impossible meat was more expensive (in spite of them running at a loss), didn’t taste as good, wasn’t any healthier, and by many accounts wasn’t any better environmentally. All downsides and no upside. I’m not surprised it fizzled out given those realities. Perhaps if they’d had another 5 years to perfect it before launching they could have overcome one or two of those deficits?

azakai 4y ago
> by many accounts wasn’t any better environmentally This is false according to every serious analysis I've seen. For example: > The most popular plant-based alternatives, Beyond [Meat] and Impossible Burgers, produce about 90 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions in comparison with beef [..] They reduce land use by at least 93 percent and water use by 87 percent to 99 percent. They also generate no manure pollution. https://www.rd.com/article/plant-based-meats/ https://www.rd.com/article/plant-based-meats/ Beef is by far the worst option (see the graph there); it isn't hard to beat.
- Ntrails 4y ago
  I read articles like that and they talk about reducing land usage by not having cattle or sheep. How they cause groundwater pollution. Then I walk on the moors or the highlands with scattered livestock and I struggle. I believe the problem is mass production, factory farming, not meat. The issue is trying to keep meat insanely cheap such that it can be eaten every meal. I think if I source grass fed meat properly my impact is minimal. But. Maybe I am wrong!
  - progman32 4y ago
    Having viable meat substitutes is a path towards reducing the need for mass meat production.

brudgers 4y ago

With 370mg of sodium, it will never taste like an actual hamburger with only ground beef...it's about five times as much. That's part of what makes it taste good. And why it's just another processed food item. The US diet is more salt centric, more sugar centric, more fat centric, than meat centric.

erulabs 4y ago
As far as I've read, and I am not a doctor (although am married to one), it's the lack of fiber and huge amounts of sugar and salt that contributes to most of the health issues we North Americans face. Meat-replacements though are more about environmental causes (as this article points out). I think they would do tremendously better if they could argue that they were healthier options too. The milk-replacements are even worse in this regard. Oat milk seems healthier than cows milk somehow, until you realize it has 50% more sugar, twice the carbs, half the protein, and fewer nutrients. I really don't understand how alternative milks have positioned themselves as healthy and artificial meat somehow has not.
- Klonoar 4y ago
  There are brands of Oat Milk that are better than others. I usually drink soy, but sometimes I want an oat milk latte and I find I have to ask the barista exactly what brand they’re using. At home I just use Elmhurst plant milks, which function fine as a base. Then again, this brand works for me because I’ve never used milk as a nutrient source - it’s just a flavor or texture.
- brudgers 4y ago
  The marketing for meat replacement is about the environment. The actual product is pretty much Plinket’s pizza rolls. I mean your faux burger has added salt and fat to the intrinsic carbs. You can get oat milk without sugar and containing less sodium that cow’s milk…mild hypertension and type 2 diabetes: it’s what I put in my coffee. You can also make oat milk yourself pretty easily. Like everything with diet, it’s a matter of having the time.
- tomcam 4y ago

solardev 4y ago

For what it's worth, there are some pretty decent "New American" recipes too, for lack of a better word. They are often vaguely inspired by ethnic fusion foods and then modified both for Americanness (more sugar, less spice, familiar seasonings, etc.) and vegetarianness. But they include everything from sandwiches to lasagnas to pot pies to chicken strips to meat loaves to chicken-fried steak to burritos to grain bowls and salads. Only very rarely do they use mock meats, but tofu, seitan (concentrated wheat protein), legumes/beans, and jackfruit are common. The trick, as you noticed, is to make the meal tasty as itself, not to make it pretend to be meat. You don't have to give up meat to enjoy those dishes once in a while, or as a side. If you eat out often, the HappyCow app is specifically for finding restaurants with good veggie options. It's free and super helpful whether you're in your home town or traveling. If you want to cook, there are a ton of purpose made vegan cookbooks. I personally like the quick and easy ones that emphasize meals under 20 minutes, vs the super fancy ones that take forever. Bon appetit.

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TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Something I’ve noticed about being vegan is the way the meals change. In a lot of American meat based meals, the meat is the center piece and everything else is peripheral. In a well made vegan meal, there is often no specific center piece. Instead, you get a multitude of flavors that all work together in complex ways. It can be really wonderful. I’d encourage anyone who eats meat every day to consider experimenting with periodic meat free days. I used to eat meat almost every meal but I’ve now quit entirely. I almost never eat meat substitutes but instead eat meals with a mixture of foods that all work together. It’s really lovely!

colordrops 4y ago
Totally agree. I find that I eat more mindfully and appreciate various ingredients and flavors to a greater degree.
typest 4y ago
Any cookbooks or recipes you recommend? How does one figure out which different pieces of the meal go together well?
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  This is a good question, but I don't work well with cookbooks. They tend to sit on my shelf closed. I learned by experimentation. I do know of one cookbook because I heard an interview with the author on the radio, called "Decolonize your diet" about traditional indigenous recipes from Mexico before the Spanish arrived and made everything about meat. The authors deserve support but for the curious it is also on library genesis. But I do a combination of looking online at vegan recipes and experimenting with stuff on my own. I make a lentil sweet potato curry that is really filling and delicious. Here is my recipe copied from a tweet I made about it: Large onion, chopped. ‘Sautee’ in water until partially clear. Add minced garlic and ginger paste. Sauté 2 more mins. Add curry powder, turmeric, any other spices, salt, pepper. Add can chopped tomatoes, 2-3 cups oat milk, 1.5 cup washed lentils, Add chopped large sweet potato, add a can of garbanzo beans, add a small can of chopped mushrooms (drained). Serve with brown rice. Can add raisins and nutritional yeast. Can get a sweet crunch adding candied nuts. I also find this lecture helpful for thinking about foods to experiment with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRrD58Ah3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRrD58Ah3Q You can also look for vegan or vegetarian restaurants in your area and try them, see what you like, and try to work with those foods. And look for different cultures like Indian food that focus on more vegetarian meals. Bon appetit!

nu11ptr 4y ago

I will respectfully disagree, and at risk of downvotes, I think food science is a very difficult field due to difficulty getting good cohorts. Vegetarians and vegans tend to be very health conscience, but often studies lump "meat eaters" in with the same group who have a diet of highly processed foods and fast food. I would also disagree most diets are "unnecessarily meat centric". Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. It is of course possible, but would take conscious work most people would not take. I would bet most vegans have inadequate protein consumption. Lastly, Impossible burgers are NOT good for you. They are highly processed junk food. Take a look at the ingredients. Full of seed oils and other things that are simply not good for you. In summary, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I'm betting on a real food diet of meat, eggs, and vegetables. I shun processed foods 98% of the time and things with added sugar. I don't think it is terribly obvious what is the "best diet" and there are several conflicting studies, but eating a "real food" diet mostly avoiding "food product" strikes me as a reasonable bet.

djleni 4y ago
> Getting adequate amounts of protein is incredibly important and is very hard to get that as a vegan/vegetarian. Why do you believe this is the case? It really isn’t. What do you consider “adequate” protein consumption?
- nu11ptr 4y ago
  I'm a weight lifter and consume 100-150g daily. I think everyone should consume around 75g daily (I should add: as an absolute minimum)
  - djleni 4y ago
    You can nearly hit 75g a day with PB&J sandwiches. That’s not exactly difficult.
    - hilbertseries 4y ago

hardolaf 4y ago

My problem with all of these fake "meats" is that they don't taste like meats, they taste like vegetables and fruits that have been handled to the point of not being enjoyable to eat. I'd rather just eat well prepared and cooked vegetable dishes like what you can get in many nations and cultures around the world than these fake "meat" products.

kzrdude 4y ago
The fake meats are of course the epitome of ultra-processed food. Hallmarks of which are if fats, proteins, sugars are entirely reshaped in a way that does not happen in cooking.

buu700 4y ago

As someone who's been strictly keto for over a decade, it would be difficult for me to maintain my macros without meat, or a close substitute. (I would mirror nu11ptr's comments[1] as well.) As someone who finds mass murder and exploitation of other animals distasteful, I'm also constantly on the lookout for realistic alternatives. For a while, I really tried to make Beyond Meat work. I wasn't thrilled about introducing a highly processed food filled with low-quality fat (canola oil) as a daily staple, but the macros weren't terrible (although far from ideal). It worked for a few months, but one day it was like a switch had suddenly flipped in my head, and even the smell of cooking it was enough to make me gag. I haven't been able to stomach it ever since. Impossible is probably more workable in that regard, but the macros are even worse, it's also highly processed (arguably more so), and I'd be skeptical of using soy as my majority protein source due to the phytoestrogens. All that being said, I recently got a chance to try a "chicken cutlet" from Meati[2]. I would highly recommend it to anyone who isn't allergic. Summary: * Rather than imitating ground meats, they sell fake steaks and chicken cutlets. * Rather than a highly processed blend of ingredients, it's a whole food — just a particular species of mycelium (what they're branding as "mushroom root"), grown in molds to fit certain shapes then flavored and pressed to remove water. * Complete protein, 0g net carbs, good variety of (naturally occurring) micronutrients. If this matters to you, it's also low-fat. If I hadn't known otherwise, I would've assumed it was just a lean cut of chicken that had been marinated in some sort of mushroom sauce, and I'm saying this as someone who eats actual meat on a daily basis. From my perspective, Meati seems like the holy grail. It's good enough to convince me that cultured meat may turn out to be redundant. The current supply is too limited to use as a daily staple, but it's going to become my go-to protein as soon as they finish scaling up production. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32964029 2: https://meati.com https://meati.com

Klonoar 4y ago
The estrogen concern with soy is fairly overblown and not really an issue. Anyway, another one to look out for is Juicy Marbles. Cannot wait to see these things get wider distribution.
- 4y ago

damidekronik 4y ago

Ethiopian is an extremly underrated cousine. Both the distinct but simple taste of the "curries" and the unique flavour of the "pancake" which is traditionally used to eat (instead of cutlery) is a pleasant experience. Regardless of your diet please give it a try!

tomcam 4y ago
Kills me that Ethiopian restaurants are so hard to find here in Seattle. The other Washington, as in D.C., has several excellent ones. Get on the stick, people!
speakfreely 4y ago
The unusually nutritious spongey bread that's served with Ethiopian meals is called injera. If it's made from teff it's also gluten free.

dmix 4y ago

Being a vegetarian, or Mediterranean, or keto usually means you have to cook. Eating out in North America (Canada and Mexico too) is always full of meat. Even in nicer restaurants. Cooking at home regardless of your diet is the simplest way to eat better. I used to used Uber Eats 3-4 times a week and I got 10x healthier just making my own food and it's been a great way to get off social media and spend more time with people. People want to come over and socialize when you get good at cooking. Which is 10x better than getting into the 100th argument online.

spfzero 4y ago
Restaurants almost all use inferior fats, such as seed oils. It's rare to find one using real butter, decent olive oil, etc. They also generally buy their sauces and dressing from large industrial processors. If you are trying to avoid PUFAs, you need to cook your own meals.
tomcam 4y ago
One hack I used during my decades as a vegetarian was ordering side dishes, not entrees. Even in, maybe especially in, steak houses the non-meat entrees are often every bit as interesting as the main course.

isthisthingon99 4y ago

What is so difficult about pan frying a steak for 3 minutes on each side followed by 4 eggs, scrambled and some broccoli florets steamed in the microwave for 2 minutes?

tomcam 4y ago
I dunno about the broccoli prep, that doesn't sound so great... air fryer FTW. Much slower though.
- isthisthingon99 4y ago
  yeah it kills some nutrients to nuke it but I need some fiber...
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    Does it? I was under the impression that microwaving food is actually one of the best ways to keep nutrients, compared to most other cooking methods.
    - isthisthingon99 4y ago
      I'm going to try this today: https://www.acouplecooks.com/fried-broccoli/ https://www.acouplecooks.com/fried-broccoli/ Edit: success
      - tomcam 4y ago
        Ngl that looks awesome. Thanks for the pointer. I’m trying it too

hakfoo 4y ago

To me, that's the "where's the beef" moment. The meatless alternatives are usually more expensive than the cheapest real-meat options in the stores. While I suppose some of this is still "relatively early-stage firm versus entrenched industry that's spent the last century streamlining its operations", it means that it's still a conscious "I'm going out of my way to choose the meatless wonder" decision. Once it got cheap enough, I figured you'd start to see it widely adapted by food services as a way to stretch margins or compete more aggressively. Although I suspect this will be hindered by various product-labeling legal issues; they'll have to still be explicitly telling people "it's not beef" and that's going to shape customer expectations. I always liked the premise of selling vegetarian products as an economic choice rather than a moral one-- it avoids any direct personal values conflict by saying "You could try the McVeggie and save a buck on this meal."

akudha 4y ago

Produce is of lower quality in general, in the U.S. And also more expensive, compared to meat. I have never eaten meat in my life. Out of curiosity, I checked the prices of chicken vs produce. It was depressing to see how much chicken I can buy for the same price of 3 mangoes (current almost 3$ for a single mango in my area). I wish produce was subsidized instead of meat and dairy) or in addition to meat)

antifa 4y ago
We have huge meat subsidies, at the minimum, we should adjust that and let the market correct the pricing.
ndiddy 4y ago
Why are you using mangoes as your metric? You can get giant bags of frozen vegetables for a dollar or two.
- akudha 4y ago
  That was just an example. I don’t eat frozen veggies, I don’t know about it. Almost all fresh produce is expensive, except bananas. Organic is even more expensive
bolt7469 4y ago
It depends what you mean by "produce." Beans are far cheaper than chicken and have a more similar dietary role than chicken vs mangoes.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

> synthetic meat that tastes as good as real meat I think if the technology takes off there is no reason that it cannot exceed the finest cuts of real meat in terms of taste.

diob 4y ago

For sure, I wish there were more Indian / Ethiopian restaurants around.

melagonster 4y ago

If it will be cheaper than meat, we don't need to do anything. We will find finding real meat is difficult.

wlecometo 4y ago

> As someone who would want to be a vegan but struggles not to eat meat going off topic, i think that being vegan/vegetarian for 5-6 days a week and one when you eat meat would still help .