7 ms·

A lot of programmers who are 35+ can struggle to find further opportunities as the more senior you are the less available those opportunities are and the more e

A lot of programmers who are 35+ can struggle to find further opportunities as the more senior you are the less available those opportunities are and the more expensive you are. Lots of companies only want young people who are naive and have limited distractions outside of work. So, really, programming as a field is front loaded and the longer you stay in the business over 35 then the luckier you have been. But make sure you have an effective exit strategy to support yourself and your family when the boss doesn't like folk older than him.

Swizec 4y ago
Big part of why programming is front loaded is that it's an incredibly new field. The entire field hasn't existed for more than 70 years. And that was if you count "Niche academic field that a few dozen mathematicians knew about" as the start. It didn't become like a job job until what, the mid 1960's? That's 60 years ago. And the number of programmers is doubling every ~5 years. Of course it's front-loaded with young people! The people who have been doing this for the field's entire time of mass popularity (1980's onwards imo) haven't even had time to get proper old yet. But also: The more experienced you are, the more your biggest value isn't in banging keys on the keyboard. A company would much rather leverage your thoughts and opinions and that may look a lot more like technical leadership than programming. Even though it's still engineering.
- therealdokks 4y ago
  This is exactly what I've found. My employer relies on my experience and values my opinions as much as they value my actual code out put.
user_named 4y ago
The same goes for EVERY profession.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
therealdokks 4y ago
Hmmm as a 53 year old programmer I've had the exact opposite experience. Because of the large diversity of my skills I have more offers for work than ever before.
- tartoran 4y ago
  You’re the odd one out, perhaps due to your own abilities and other special qualities. For the average programmer ageism applies though. And the largest majority of devs is in the average region
  - dpweb 4y ago
    I know several 50s something programmers who have plenty of work. This is in big-corp IT not the younger SV scene. Only an asshole cares how old somebody is. Reminder also, ageism isn't just a bummer, it's illegal. Most people aren't going to take legal action, but imo if you're discriminated against you have somewhat of an obligation to do so.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    I think it depends on your adaptability. I know few devs over 50, but the ones I do are like the dev you reply to - they are some of the most adaptable, T shaped skills. Deep domain knowledge & experience in a couple areas and broad experience in many techs. Another factor to consider is post-peak-comp. You may find yourself in roles when you are older that pay less than they used to. This may very well be fine because you no longer have a down payment or kids college to save for, and if you didn't keep upgrading homes.. your mortgage payments 10-20 years into owning should a smaller and smaller percent of your income. If you are no longer chasing comp, you have a broader selection of roles and can be more selective.
  - dc-programmer 4y ago
    Are there any studies on the phenomenon? I like reading peoples stories but at the same time I’d be interested in seeing the data
  - indymike 4y ago
sokoloff 4y ago
I find the “I won’t take less than $X or else I’ll stay unemployed” to be kind of weird as a career planning strategy. If there is an under-supply of senior talent, everyone accepts and expects that the clearing salary for those roles will go up. Yet, if there’s an over-supply, many people seem unable to extrapolate from the previous.
- orev 4y ago
  Many hiring teams will look at an experienced person as “too experienced” and won’t even offer the job to an otherwise good candidate. They justify it by saying things like “this position is too junior for them and they’ll just leave when they get bored/find a better position”, etc.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    That’s another apparent sub-optimization. “We’ve been looking for a while and we’d rather keep looking than make a level-Y offer to this good candidate.” If the candidate says “I’m only taking this to avoid starving but will quit as soon as I find any other job”, then sure, don’t make the offer. If they don’t give any signs either way, assume they’ll stay for 18-48 months as is common and decide accordingly.
silvestrov 4y ago
> Lots of companies only want young people The older I get, the more I think it is not the company itself but middle-managers. Managers with an authoritarian streak will have trouble handling experienced developers that objects to non-optimal designs and processes. It is much easier for such a manager to handle young naïve developers that gladly accept to work 5 times as many hours as a good design needs. Software don't work well with an "do as I say, no matter how stupid it is" approach. I think that is why Silicon Valley (and Europe) has much greater success writing software than asia/India.
- RichardCNormos 4y ago
  I manage a couple of developers that are in their late 40s. It's great. I just say, "hey, can you handle this complex, ill-defined task?" and they get it done right, the first time. No real management necessary. An older, grizzled, battle-hardened engineer is one of a manager's best assets.
scarface74 4y ago
I keep hearing this. I’m 48 and between the time I was 34 and 46, bumping around in your standard enterprise corp dev jobs, I found jobs relatively quickly - the shortest time was 4 days from starting to look to having a job (corp dev at the time a F10 non tech company), the longest being two weeks. Every time besides the first, I was juggling multiple opportunities and had three offers. I change jobs 5 times during that time period. In hindsight, until the last two in 2016 and 2018 they were just journeyman CRUD jobs with the last two being hands on dev lead and de facto “cloud architect” respectively. I just got my first job in $BigTech at 46 two years ago. It’s not officially a “software engineering job”. But for all intents and purposes I’m doing the same type of work I did at the last couple of jobs - gathering requirements, presentations, development, and a shit ton of yaml, HCL, PowerPoint slides, and diagrams. I’m sure at 48, I could contact my network of former coworkers, managers, recruiters and someone would give me a job even if it were just a standard .Net journeyman developer again. If you’re still randomly submitting your resume to an ATS trying to prove yourself to companies by reversing binary trees on whiteboards while juggling bowling balls and riding a unicycle on a tightrope, you’re doing it wrong at 40+ years old.
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  > If you’re still randomly submitting your resume to an ATS trying to prove yourself to companies by reversing binary trees on whiteboards while juggling bowling balls and riding a unicycle on a tightrope, you’re doing it wrong at 40+ years old. I did that at 45 and landed an interesting job at FAANG (and I'm not the only one). I think it's a bit contradictory to think old programmers are still as capable and sharp as 25 years old, and at the same time insisting to be judged on different standards.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I didn’t randomly submit my resume to get into a FAANG at 45. When the recruiter reached out to me about an SWE position (that I wasn’t interested in). I kept talking to her and she directed me to a related remote job that I was interested in (cloud consulting - enterprise app dev/cloud architect).
wonderwonder 4y ago
I very much think this is limited to the startup / work fast and break things style of companies. Always work available for sr. people at large established companies, especially fortune 500. Specifically companies where tech is not the core business product, many of them are attempting to modernize their systems. They pay pretty well too; not Google / Amazon level but on a pure salary basis many probably pay comparable to Microsoft without the shares of course. They do have a good 401k match though. A good salary for 95% of tech people. I am early 40's and have had no issue finding work and am currently interviewing others to come work with my group in a solution architect / tech lead style role and they are all my age. I have never interviewed for a job and not gotten an offer, regardless of age; with that said I'm not interviewing at startups or places I feel really wouldn't allow me a family life. I get the offers not because I'm incredible, I'm not, but because I know my lane and skill set and stick to it.
- scarface74 4y ago
  It was even easier for me to find work at smaller companies the older I got. There were always companies that really needed someone who could help them mature their processes, who they could put out in front of customers, who knew how to work with sales, who they could send off-site and talk to their customers tech departments (B2B) etc. It got to the point where my “interviews” were more just sitting down with directors/CTOs and talking like adults about how I would help them solve their real world business problems. I haven’t done a coding interview in over a decade even though I have been hands on all that time - across five jobs
- symfoniq 4y ago
  I agree. After some frustrating experiences applying and interviewing for jobs at the kind of startup-sized companies where I’ve spent my entire career, and fearing that my age might be a factor (I’m about to turn 40), I applied on a job at a Fortune 500 and had an offer a few days later. The pay, benefits, and work/life balance are excellent, to the point that I have some regret over not exploring this avenue sooner. Oh, and now I’m younger than most of my coworkers again. I don’t think ageism is a thing here.

Swizec 4y ago

Big part of why programming is front loaded is that it's an incredibly new field. The entire field hasn't existed for more than 70 years. And that was if you count "Niche academic field that a few dozen mathematicians knew about" as the start. It didn't become like a job job until what, the mid 1960's? That's 60 years ago. And the number of programmers is doubling every ~5 years. Of course it's front-loaded with young people! The people who have been doing this for the field's entire time of mass popularity (1980's onwards imo) haven't even had time to get proper old yet. But also: The more experienced you are, the more your biggest value isn't in banging keys on the keyboard. A company would much rather leverage your thoughts and opinions and that may look a lot more like technical leadership than programming. Even though it's still engineering.

therealdokks 4y ago
This is exactly what I've found. My employer relies on my experience and values my opinions as much as they value my actual code out put.

user_named 4y ago

The same goes for EVERY profession.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

therealdokks 4y ago

Hmmm as a 53 year old programmer I've had the exact opposite experience. Because of the large diversity of my skills I have more offers for work than ever before.

tartoran 4y ago
You’re the odd one out, perhaps due to your own abilities and other special qualities. For the average programmer ageism applies though. And the largest majority of devs is in the average region
- dpweb 4y ago
  I know several 50s something programmers who have plenty of work. This is in big-corp IT not the younger SV scene. Only an asshole cares how old somebody is. Reminder also, ageism isn't just a bummer, it's illegal. Most people aren't going to take legal action, but imo if you're discriminated against you have somewhat of an obligation to do so.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  I think it depends on your adaptability. I know few devs over 50, but the ones I do are like the dev you reply to - they are some of the most adaptable, T shaped skills. Deep domain knowledge & experience in a couple areas and broad experience in many techs. Another factor to consider is post-peak-comp. You may find yourself in roles when you are older that pay less than they used to. This may very well be fine because you no longer have a down payment or kids college to save for, and if you didn't keep upgrading homes.. your mortgage payments 10-20 years into owning should a smaller and smaller percent of your income. If you are no longer chasing comp, you have a broader selection of roles and can be more selective.
- dc-programmer 4y ago
  Are there any studies on the phenomenon? I like reading peoples stories but at the same time I’d be interested in seeing the data
- indymike 4y ago

sokoloff 4y ago

I find the “I won’t take less than $X or else I’ll stay unemployed” to be kind of weird as a career planning strategy. If there is an under-supply of senior talent, everyone accepts and expects that the clearing salary for those roles will go up. Yet, if there’s an over-supply, many people seem unable to extrapolate from the previous.

orev 4y ago
Many hiring teams will look at an experienced person as “too experienced” and won’t even offer the job to an otherwise good candidate. They justify it by saying things like “this position is too junior for them and they’ll just leave when they get bored/find a better position”, etc.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  That’s another apparent sub-optimization. “We’ve been looking for a while and we’d rather keep looking than make a level-Y offer to this good candidate.” If the candidate says “I’m only taking this to avoid starving but will quit as soon as I find any other job”, then sure, don’t make the offer. If they don’t give any signs either way, assume they’ll stay for 18-48 months as is common and decide accordingly.

silvestrov 4y ago

> Lots of companies only want young people The older I get, the more I think it is not the company itself but middle-managers. Managers with an authoritarian streak will have trouble handling experienced developers that objects to non-optimal designs and processes. It is much easier for such a manager to handle young naïve developers that gladly accept to work 5 times as many hours as a good design needs. Software don't work well with an "do as I say, no matter how stupid it is" approach. I think that is why Silicon Valley (and Europe) has much greater success writing software than asia/India.

RichardCNormos 4y ago
I manage a couple of developers that are in their late 40s. It's great. I just say, "hey, can you handle this complex, ill-defined task?" and they get it done right, the first time. No real management necessary. An older, grizzled, battle-hardened engineer is one of a manager's best assets.

scarface74 4y ago

I keep hearing this. I’m 48 and between the time I was 34 and 46, bumping around in your standard enterprise corp dev jobs, I found jobs relatively quickly - the shortest time was 4 days from starting to look to having a job (corp dev at the time a F10 non tech company), the longest being two weeks. Every time besides the first, I was juggling multiple opportunities and had three offers. I change jobs 5 times during that time period. In hindsight, until the last two in 2016 and 2018 they were just journeyman CRUD jobs with the last two being hands on dev lead and de facto “cloud architect” respectively. I just got my first job in $BigTech at 46 two years ago. It’s not officially a “software engineering job”. But for all intents and purposes I’m doing the same type of work I did at the last couple of jobs - gathering requirements, presentations, development, and a shit ton of yaml, HCL, PowerPoint slides, and diagrams. I’m sure at 48, I could contact my network of former coworkers, managers, recruiters and someone would give me a job even if it were just a standard .Net journeyman developer again. If you’re still randomly submitting your resume to an ATS trying to prove yourself to companies by reversing binary trees on whiteboards while juggling bowling balls and riding a unicycle on a tightrope, you’re doing it wrong at 40+ years old.

yodsanklai 4y ago
> If you’re still randomly submitting your resume to an ATS trying to prove yourself to companies by reversing binary trees on whiteboards while juggling bowling balls and riding a unicycle on a tightrope, you’re doing it wrong at 40+ years old. I did that at 45 and landed an interesting job at FAANG (and I'm not the only one). I think it's a bit contradictory to think old programmers are still as capable and sharp as 25 years old, and at the same time insisting to be judged on different standards.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I didn’t randomly submit my resume to get into a FAANG at 45. When the recruiter reached out to me about an SWE position (that I wasn’t interested in). I kept talking to her and she directed me to a related remote job that I was interested in (cloud consulting - enterprise app dev/cloud architect).

wonderwonder 4y ago

I very much think this is limited to the startup / work fast and break things style of companies. Always work available for sr. people at large established companies, especially fortune 500. Specifically companies where tech is not the core business product, many of them are attempting to modernize their systems. They pay pretty well too; not Google / Amazon level but on a pure salary basis many probably pay comparable to Microsoft without the shares of course. They do have a good 401k match though. A good salary for 95% of tech people. I am early 40's and have had no issue finding work and am currently interviewing others to come work with my group in a solution architect / tech lead style role and they are all my age. I have never interviewed for a job and not gotten an offer, regardless of age; with that said I'm not interviewing at startups or places I feel really wouldn't allow me a family life. I get the offers not because I'm incredible, I'm not, but because I know my lane and skill set and stick to it.

scarface74 4y ago
It was even easier for me to find work at smaller companies the older I got. There were always companies that really needed someone who could help them mature their processes, who they could put out in front of customers, who knew how to work with sales, who they could send off-site and talk to their customers tech departments (B2B) etc. It got to the point where my “interviews” were more just sitting down with directors/CTOs and talking like adults about how I would help them solve their real world business problems. I haven’t done a coding interview in over a decade even though I have been hands on all that time - across five jobs
symfoniq 4y ago
I agree. After some frustrating experiences applying and interviewing for jobs at the kind of startup-sized companies where I’ve spent my entire career, and fearing that my age might be a factor (I’m about to turn 40), I applied on a job at a Fortune 500 and had an offer a few days later. The pay, benefits, and work/life balance are excellent, to the point that I have some regret over not exploring this avenue sooner. Oh, and now I’m younger than most of my coworkers again. I don’t think ageism is a thing here.