6 ms·

I wonder where the genesis is of this idea that programming is young person's game akin to physical sports where speed, explosiveness and endurance matter. It

I wonder where the genesis is of this idea that programming is young person's game akin to physical sports where speed, explosiveness and endurance matter. It seems to me that it's an intellectual activity where one should go on for very long honing their skills and becoming better and better at it with age. Maybe the industry sidelines the older more experienced technical folks at a cost, and that's why there seems to be a reinvention of the wheel several times in the software industry. I'm curious if there are other technical fields that are similar to programming with regards to ageism. Wishful thinking maybe, but open-source may help in this regard. As more and more of software is being added to the commons, those who've been there and done that can have a greater influence in driving progress.

w4ffl35 4y ago
Younger people with cognitive bias running the hiring shit show perhaps?
- tartoran 4y ago
  Not only that but the younger are more maleable and gullible in some aspects but also have the better capacity (and willingness) to adapt to the tower of babel du jour.
  - w4ffl35 4y ago
    Is it the hiring manager's objective to hire easily controllable apes that can type, or human beings that can grasp the product and business goals, shape the culture, translate technical jargon into easily understandable concepts for the uninitiated and make the employer a shit load of money by architecting and programming their vision?
    - tartoran 4y ago
      Young people aren’t apes who can type, they’re bright young people whose inexperience lends them the qualities I mentioned in my previous comment. In many cases they perform quite well (but not efficiently IMO)
      - w4ffl35 4y ago
        > younger are more maleable and gullible in some aspects > better capacity (and willingness) to adapt to the tower of babel du jour this all sounds like you're describing people who can type and do what they are told. and: we're all apes who can type. edit: age is irrelevant. my point isn't that older people are better hires. hire for skill.
    - voakbasda 4y ago
      Weak managers hire weak subordinates.
macrolime 4y ago
Maybe because a 25 year old can work 12 hours a day, while a 40 year old often has family obligations that make that impossible.
- weatherlite 4y ago
  I don't think that many millennials want to work 12 hours a day...
  - underdeserver 4y ago
    Some millennials are 40 years old now.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Yeah but the very last thing you want is an inexperience person who types code 12 hours a day.
awesomegoat_com 4y ago
In my mind, young male have a lot of hormones that make them compete and it shows. There seems to be clear behavioral change in the average programmer as they age. Later in life (oftentimes with family), they do not have biological set-up to code 14 hours a day whole year as they did before. Obviously, outcoding everybody else is sometimes considered as a value and other times it is not. Shrug.
- atemerev 4y ago
  I never ever coded 14 hours a day except in competitive programming. Doing it at work would be insane.
  - dahart 4y ago
    I did, multiple times for extended periods, and it was insane, yeah. Games and movies. I prefer to not do that anymore, so in that sense I’m doing less work as I age and choose to avoid insane overtime in favor of maxing out at mild overtime. I think I’m coding better now though, more productive, partly by being more choosy, partly from more experience, partly from making more rational decisions when not low on sleep and exhausted from overwork and missing friends and family. It is sometimes a problem in the industry that you can’t tell how productive someone is by how much time they spend typing code.
thunky 4y ago
I"m not sure that the common idea is that younger programmers are more skilled, but rather that they are more in demand. Could be for a variety of reasons, for example: - cheaper - less jaded - easier to "manage" - more willing to do the boring work that the older devs don't want to do - more likely to be on call or work extra hours - less likely to retire next year
- LostInTheWoods 4y ago
  >more willing to do the boring work that the older devs don't want to do No body wants to do the boring work. I think more experienced devs realize that a boring assignment isn't personal, its just business.
  - thunky 4y ago
    I think you're right. I also think that what tends to bore an experienced dev may be less likely to bore a junior dev, just because it's newer to them.
somenameforme 4y ago
Chess is a primarily mental competition, but players at the top of the world tend to hit their peak at around 35 years old. Players can continue playing at an exceptionally high level until the end of their life, but on average there is a gradual downward slide from that peak. Magnus Carlsen, the current world champ and arguably strongest player of all time, has decided to simply stop defending his title (held since 2013) at the age of 31. I think something that tech and chess may have in common as well is the ever-shifting grounds. Electrical engineering of today is not dramatically different than electrical engineering of yesterday. But programming (depending on the domain) is quite different today than yesterday. This is going to result in an age bias because at some point you start to simply become jaded learning 'Incremental, overhyped, and not strictly necessary new trendy framework/language [that nobody will be using in 10 years] #2,743.'
- unity1001 4y ago
  > Chess Chess is not a good analogy. It is a singular context. The real advantages that being over 35 and programming brings are: - You are able to juggle much larger and different contexts at the same time - You have immense foresight that enables you to architect larger things
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Keep in mind that we've seen an interesting phenomenon over the past few decades where the average peak age of professional players has been going up. This includes physical sports like baseball, football as well as things like chess, fighting games and various esports. I think the peak age thing ends up being less due to actual aging and more due to the responsibilities of life taking time away from practice.
- Tryk 4y ago
  The reason Magnus is not defending his title has nothing to do with some decline in ability. Last game versus Nepomniachtchi he won quite convincingly 7.5 to 3.5. >“I feel I don’t have a lot to gain, I don’t particularly like [the championship matches], and although I’m sure a match would be interesting for historical reasons and all of that, I don’t have any inclination to play and I will simply not play the match,” he said on his sponsor’s podcast. [https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112479750/magnus-carlsen-world-chess-championship-fide https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112479750/magnus-carlsen-wor...]

w4ffl35 4y ago

Younger people with cognitive bias running the hiring shit show perhaps?

tartoran 4y ago
Not only that but the younger are more maleable and gullible in some aspects but also have the better capacity (and willingness) to adapt to the tower of babel du jour.
- w4ffl35 4y ago
  Is it the hiring manager's objective to hire easily controllable apes that can type, or human beings that can grasp the product and business goals, shape the culture, translate technical jargon into easily understandable concepts for the uninitiated and make the employer a shit load of money by architecting and programming their vision?
  - tartoran 4y ago
    Young people aren’t apes who can type, they’re bright young people whose inexperience lends them the qualities I mentioned in my previous comment. In many cases they perform quite well (but not efficiently IMO)
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      > younger are more maleable and gullible in some aspects > better capacity (and willingness) to adapt to the tower of babel du jour this all sounds like you're describing people who can type and do what they are told. and: we're all apes who can type. edit: age is irrelevant. my point isn't that older people are better hires. hire for skill.
  - voakbasda 4y ago
    Weak managers hire weak subordinates.

macrolime 4y ago

Maybe because a 25 year old can work 12 hours a day, while a 40 year old often has family obligations that make that impossible.

weatherlite 4y ago
I don't think that many millennials want to work 12 hours a day...
- underdeserver 4y ago
  Some millennials are 40 years old now.
jeffbee 4y ago
Yeah but the very last thing you want is an inexperience person who types code 12 hours a day.

awesomegoat_com 4y ago

In my mind, young male have a lot of hormones that make them compete and it shows. There seems to be clear behavioral change in the average programmer as they age. Later in life (oftentimes with family), they do not have biological set-up to code 14 hours a day whole year as they did before. Obviously, outcoding everybody else is sometimes considered as a value and other times it is not. Shrug.

atemerev 4y ago
I never ever coded 14 hours a day except in competitive programming. Doing it at work would be insane.
- dahart 4y ago
  I did, multiple times for extended periods, and it was insane, yeah. Games and movies. I prefer to not do that anymore, so in that sense I’m doing less work as I age and choose to avoid insane overtime in favor of maxing out at mild overtime. I think I’m coding better now though, more productive, partly by being more choosy, partly from more experience, partly from making more rational decisions when not low on sleep and exhausted from overwork and missing friends and family. It is sometimes a problem in the industry that you can’t tell how productive someone is by how much time they spend typing code.

thunky 4y ago

I"m not sure that the common idea is that younger programmers are more skilled, but rather that they are more in demand. Could be for a variety of reasons, for example: - cheaper - less jaded - easier to "manage" - more willing to do the boring work that the older devs don't want to do - more likely to be on call or work extra hours - less likely to retire next year

LostInTheWoods 4y ago
>more willing to do the boring work that the older devs don't want to do No body wants to do the boring work. I think more experienced devs realize that a boring assignment isn't personal, its just business.
- thunky 4y ago
  I think you're right. I also think that what tends to bore an experienced dev may be less likely to bore a junior dev, just because it's newer to them.

somenameforme 4y ago

Chess is a primarily mental competition, but players at the top of the world tend to hit their peak at around 35 years old. Players can continue playing at an exceptionally high level until the end of their life, but on average there is a gradual downward slide from that peak. Magnus Carlsen, the current world champ and arguably strongest player of all time, has decided to simply stop defending his title (held since 2013) at the age of 31. I think something that tech and chess may have in common as well is the ever-shifting grounds. Electrical engineering of today is not dramatically different than electrical engineering of yesterday. But programming (depending on the domain) is quite different today than yesterday. This is going to result in an age bias because at some point you start to simply become jaded learning 'Incremental, overhyped, and not strictly necessary new trendy framework/language [that nobody will be using in 10 years] #2,743.'

unity1001 4y ago
> Chess Chess is not a good analogy. It is a singular context. The real advantages that being over 35 and programming brings are: - You are able to juggle much larger and different contexts at the same time - You have immense foresight that enables you to architect larger things
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fzeroracer 4y ago
Keep in mind that we've seen an interesting phenomenon over the past few decades where the average peak age of professional players has been going up. This includes physical sports like baseball, football as well as things like chess, fighting games and various esports. I think the peak age thing ends up being less due to actual aging and more due to the responsibilities of life taking time away from practice.
Tryk 4y ago
The reason Magnus is not defending his title has nothing to do with some decline in ability. Last game versus Nepomniachtchi he won quite convincingly 7.5 to 3.5. >“I feel I don’t have a lot to gain, I don’t particularly like [the championship matches], and although I’m sure a match would be interesting for historical reasons and all of that, I don’t have any inclination to play and I will simply not play the match,” he said on his sponsor’s podcast. [https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112479750/magnus-carlsen-world-chess-championship-fide https://www.npr.org/2022/07/20/1112479750/magnus-carlsen-wor...]