5 ms·

> California suffers from a Peter Thiel curse. This. Mr Thiel's highly hypocritical and incoherent rant on "dysfunctional societies" and "corrupt governments"

> California suffers from a Peter Thiel curse. This. Mr Thiel's highly hypocritical and incoherent rant on "dysfunctional societies" and "corrupt governments" is nothing more admitting that the likes of him are refusing to contribute at all back to society, let alone proportionally to what they personally benefited from it, and are thus single-handedly actively causing its deterioration. Mr Thiel, pay your taxes, and in the process put your money where your mouth is and start contributing back to fixing problems. You're supposed to be bootstrappy and a problem-solver, aren't you? Why did any of your industrious spirit vanished once it's your time to pay back to society what you owe it? Is it easy to build a huge mansion in a gated community but too hard to work with local and state governments to chip in a fraction of that cost to invest in urban renewal programs, social programs, or even social housing?

rayiner 4y ago
No, the problem is the engineers, not Thiel. European countries also have billionaires. But the billionaires don’t pay for the social housing, etc. Sweden doesn’t have a wealth tax, it has low corporate taxes, and low capital gains taxes too. Sweden has all the robust welfare system because the top tax rate starts at around $75,000/year. The only reason California doesn’t look like Sweden is because your average California liberal is a hypocrite and won’t put their money where their mouth is.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Isn’t it hard to become a Swedish citizen?
  - bluepizza 4y ago
    You need around four years living in Sweden, and pass some basic language tests. It’s not very hard.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      You’re telling me an adult in any country on earth can move to Sweden (how hard is it to move to Sweden), stay there for 4 years, pass a test and become a citizen? I’m skeptical.
      - daniel-cussen 4y ago
        Yeah and that's why people are losing their shit, just can't can't CAN'T dude super small country. In any case blonde girl Sweden and human rights Sweden are not the same place.
      - bluepizza 4y ago
        Well, I understand your skepticism, which is always healthy. I recommend a good Google/Reddit search to find all of the nuances of the subject, but overall, yes, if you are legally working in Sweden for 4 years, you can become a citizen.
        endisneigh 4y ago
        How easily can you work in Sweden with no ties at all? I did Google a bit and didn’t see anything supporting what you said. https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
        bluepizza 4y ago
        A lot of foreigners work for the big companies, such as Volvo, H&M, Klarna, Spotify, King, iZettle. The visa process is relatively painless. Much simpler than the the process for USA or UK. All you need is a job offer.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It’s much simpler for 290M+ people in the US to move to California. As well as much more difficult for California to stop the US from redistributing its wealth to other areas of the US. So not really comparable to an independent nation of Sweden.
- bluepizza 4y ago
  I recommend visiting Sweden. The welfare system is falling apart, the population is increasingly hostile towards immigration, the average salary is rather low, while prices are high. It is not the best place for the poor, middle class, or the rich. Meanwhile, it’s important to remind you that engineers are rarely involved with policymaking. They are not the problem. Heck, there isn’t even an union or guild for engineers.
  - zthrowaway 4y ago
    Perhaps the influx of thousands of migrants per year is overwhelming the system? Why can’t their population raise concerns around this?
    - bluepizza 4y ago
      It most probably is. But OP’s point was that if engineers paid more taxes, all problems would be solved. And it’s not true - migrants also pay high taxes in Sweden. My point here is that there isn’t a single solution for very complex systemic issues. Pinning the blame on middle classes is wrong and unproductive.
    - timellis-smith 4y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/14/swedish-pm-concedes-election-defeat-to-bloc-led-by-far-right-sweden-democrats https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/14/swedish-pm-con... They voted for a very anti-immigration right wing party.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I’m using engineers as a California-specific example of upper middle class people (given the reference to Peter Thiel below). Sweden, and every other European country, pays for its welfare system by taxing middle class people. That makes sense because middle class people have most of the money. Facebook’s payroll is much bigger than the investment Zuckerberg makes every year. They don’t sit around complaining that we can’t have social services because the billionaires won’t pay for it.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > The only reason California doesn’t look like Sweden is because your average California liberal is a hypocrite and won’t put their money where their mouth is. Or maybe California cannot restrict immigration from other parts of the US, containing 290M+ people. Nor can it stop the federal US government from taking a good portion of its wealth and giving to other parts of the US. And Sweden can stop immigration anytime it wants. Seem like pretty big differences in parameters requiring different approaches to government and expectations of outcomes.
spaginal 4y ago
Local, state, and federal government at this stage of our national financial collapse is a bottomless grifting machine. Telling someone to pay their taxes to fix this problem is kind of like telling someone to drink more poison to cure their stomach ache.
__derek__ 4y ago
> You're supposed to be bootstrappy and a problem-solver, aren't you? Why did any of your industrious spirit vanished once it's your time to pay back to society what you owe it? It's interesting that Peter Thiel's preferred mythology (bootstrappy problem-solver with an industrious spirit) has become canon even among skeptics.
- arinlen 4y ago
  > It's interesting that Peter Thiel's preferred mythology (bootstrappy problem-solver with an industrious spirit) has become canon even among skeptics. Peter Thiel's mythology revolves around the idea that all of society's problema are solved by industrious individuals, much like himself, instead of the state. And now we see the likes of a Peter Thiel not only robbing the state of the means to actually do the job he's whining they should do, but also doing absolutely zero to do anything about the problem. It's not a mythology. It's entitlement, hypocrisy, cinicism, and rationalized greed.
  - blep_ 4y ago
    Mythology, but in the Greek sense, where all the (gods|rich people) are actually terrible people, but you have to play along or your life will get worse, and we spin all failures to do so as personal failings.
  - __derek__ 4y ago
    My comment's target was the mythology about Thiel's origin story.

rayiner 4y ago

No, the problem is the engineers, not Thiel. European countries also have billionaires. But the billionaires don’t pay for the social housing, etc. Sweden doesn’t have a wealth tax, it has low corporate taxes, and low capital gains taxes too. Sweden has all the robust welfare system because the top tax rate starts at around $75,000/year. The only reason California doesn’t look like Sweden is because your average California liberal is a hypocrite and won’t put their money where their mouth is.

endisneigh 4y ago
Isn’t it hard to become a Swedish citizen?
- bluepizza 4y ago
  You need around four years living in Sweden, and pass some basic language tests. It’s not very hard.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    You’re telling me an adult in any country on earth can move to Sweden (how hard is it to move to Sweden), stay there for 4 years, pass a test and become a citizen? I’m skeptical.
    - daniel-cussen 4y ago
      Yeah and that's why people are losing their shit, just can't can't CAN'T dude super small country. In any case blonde girl Sweden and human rights Sweden are not the same place.
    - bluepizza 4y ago
      Well, I understand your skepticism, which is always healthy. I recommend a good Google/Reddit search to find all of the nuances of the subject, but overall, yes, if you are legally working in Sweden for 4 years, you can become a citizen.
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        How easily can you work in Sweden with no ties at all? I did Google a bit and didn’t see anything supporting what you said. https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
        bluepizza 4y ago
        A lot of foreigners work for the big companies, such as Volvo, H&M, Klarna, Spotify, King, iZettle. The visa process is relatively painless. Much simpler than the the process for USA or UK. All you need is a job offer.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It’s much simpler for 290M+ people in the US to move to California. As well as much more difficult for California to stop the US from redistributing its wealth to other areas of the US. So not really comparable to an independent nation of Sweden.
bluepizza 4y ago
I recommend visiting Sweden. The welfare system is falling apart, the population is increasingly hostile towards immigration, the average salary is rather low, while prices are high. It is not the best place for the poor, middle class, or the rich. Meanwhile, it’s important to remind you that engineers are rarely involved with policymaking. They are not the problem. Heck, there isn’t even an union or guild for engineers.
- zthrowaway 4y ago
  Perhaps the influx of thousands of migrants per year is overwhelming the system? Why can’t their population raise concerns around this?
  - bluepizza 4y ago
    It most probably is. But OP’s point was that if engineers paid more taxes, all problems would be solved. And it’s not true - migrants also pay high taxes in Sweden. My point here is that there isn’t a single solution for very complex systemic issues. Pinning the blame on middle classes is wrong and unproductive.
  - timellis-smith 4y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/14/swedish-pm-concedes-election-defeat-to-bloc-led-by-far-right-sweden-democrats https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/14/swedish-pm-con... They voted for a very anti-immigration right wing party.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I’m using engineers as a California-specific example of upper middle class people (given the reference to Peter Thiel below). Sweden, and every other European country, pays for its welfare system by taxing middle class people. That makes sense because middle class people have most of the money. Facebook’s payroll is much bigger than the investment Zuckerberg makes every year. They don’t sit around complaining that we can’t have social services because the billionaires won’t pay for it.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> The only reason California doesn’t look like Sweden is because your average California liberal is a hypocrite and won’t put their money where their mouth is. Or maybe California cannot restrict immigration from other parts of the US, containing 290M+ people. Nor can it stop the federal US government from taking a good portion of its wealth and giving to other parts of the US. And Sweden can stop immigration anytime it wants. Seem like pretty big differences in parameters requiring different approaches to government and expectations of outcomes.

spaginal 4y ago

Local, state, and federal government at this stage of our national financial collapse is a bottomless grifting machine. Telling someone to pay their taxes to fix this problem is kind of like telling someone to drink more poison to cure their stomach ache.

__derek__ 4y ago

> You're supposed to be bootstrappy and a problem-solver, aren't you? Why did any of your industrious spirit vanished once it's your time to pay back to society what you owe it? It's interesting that Peter Thiel's preferred mythology (bootstrappy problem-solver with an industrious spirit) has become canon even among skeptics.

arinlen 4y ago
> It's interesting that Peter Thiel's preferred mythology (bootstrappy problem-solver with an industrious spirit) has become canon even among skeptics. Peter Thiel's mythology revolves around the idea that all of society's problema are solved by industrious individuals, much like himself, instead of the state. And now we see the likes of a Peter Thiel not only robbing the state of the means to actually do the job he's whining they should do, but also doing absolutely zero to do anything about the problem. It's not a mythology. It's entitlement, hypocrisy, cinicism, and rationalized greed.
- blep_ 4y ago
  Mythology, but in the Greek sense, where all the (gods|rich people) are actually terrible people, but you have to play along or your life will get worse, and we spin all failures to do so as personal failings.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  My comment's target was the mythology about Thiel's origin story.