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I have never done any Rust, but I love Volvo (I have driven 3 different Volvos) and I'd buy them without trying them (done it twice) if you want a car that is c

I have never done any Rust, but I love Volvo (I have driven 3 different Volvos) and I'd buy them without trying them (done it twice) if you want a car that is consistent and user-friendly, this is the one to go for. Now I have a reason to try Rust.

nazka 4y ago
You may end up liking it too much. :D Just a few warnings. Everybody when they start are “fighting with the borrow checker”. And some people are frustrated by it. But you have to see that it is a good thing. Because Rust is warning you about a whole type of bug that your old way of doing things were actually creating this kind of bug. And now rust can catch them! It’s like a guy the frustration of someone coming from a dynamic language to a typed language and being frustrated because he has a type number but now he wants it to be a string. Sure you can do that in a dynamic language but it can created all kind of bug. And another point. Remember what the language is made for and also not made for. Yes you are going to be faster in X language for different things. But for what Rust is good at, the power it gives you, the dev experience, and the performance are amazing. I usually would grab Typescript first for the back and then reach to Rust where speed and security safety is critical. And it’s so good to code in it. Have fun!
- Galanwe 4y ago
  > Rust is telling that your old way of doing things were actually creating a whole kind of bug that now rust can catch! As an experienced C programmer learning Rust, my frustration is less "oh it prevented a bug I would have made" and more "no but its fine in this context leave me alone" :-)
  - unrealhoang 4y ago
    Unsafe, pointer and transmute will tell Rust to leave you alone.
    - 411111111111111 4y ago
      At the cost of having most of the community saying that you can't code and are irresponsible any time your code comes up.
      - unrealhoang 4y ago
        If only you make a library out of it, and it’s unsound. Not so different from any other programming language community I guess.
        herbstein 4y ago
        One of the things that set off the whole actix debacle was a PR removing unsafe code with the equivalent safe code was rejected, even as it was shown to cause unsoundness reachable by safe code using the framework.
      - jmillikin 4y ago
        So tell them off and carry on? Why would you care about their opinion? Writing low-level systems code often that involves pointer arithmetic or type punning. The whole point of Rust is to be able to write such code with the iffy parts clearly delimited.
      - bogeholm 4y ago
        The actix-web thing, where a couple of unsound optimizations in a popular library caused some drama? Yeah it was kind of unfortunate, and I think resolved by now? As a saying goes (in some locations), “Now we probably can’t boil more soup from those bones”.
  - rapsey 4y ago
    Yeah it is all those other C programmers causing memory corruption.
    - izacus 4y ago
      Or you know, sometimes the tooling just simply is inflexible and can't figure out what is it the code is trying to do. There's a reason why parsin code is a NP-complete problem.
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    Unfortunately, "it is fine in this context leave me alone" is often incorrect now or at the very least will be incorrect in the future when some other change breaks invariants that you are using to justify its correctness today. This is not always the case, but we observe very clearly that even C++ programmers using modern smart-pointer style fuck up object ownership and lifetimes.
    - mustache_kimono 4y ago
      Although I think much of this is technically true, I think this is wrong way to "sell" Rust to C programmers. A far better approach is to say "Rust is a completely different paradigm that you may have to learn," because when you start to use closures, iterators, etc., it definitely is. It's not C. It's OCaml is C's clothing. It will allow you to beat it into submission, but if you have to beat it there is probably a better way. There is this belief "I know C so I know what's fast here", and, while that's sometimes true, I think it's wrong often enough re: Rust to try doing things a different way at a relatively high level. I think when you're starting off with Rust your goal should be to implement virtually everything in the dumbest/most obvious/Python-ic way possible, and then to experiment with optimization/rewrites. And while you should try the thing "You know to be fast because you know C" you should also spend that time reading how the std lib implemented a feature and leaning on the std lib, benchmarking as you go. One reason is because the paradigm is obviously different. Another is because the std lib has lots of features for common uses which are optimized very carefully, which C just doesn't have, and one shouldn't ignore/forget that.
      - UncleMeat 4y ago
        Sure. IMO, Rust should be sold to CTOs and regulators. The fact that our industry doesn't seem to be taking memory safety seriously for applications that operate on untrusted data is frankly an embarrassment. I don't doubt that people will want to keep using the thing they are used to a like. I'm saying that we need a plan to solve memory safety as an industry.
    - Galanwe 4y ago
      > Unfortunately, "it is fine in this context leave me alone" is often incorrect That's a very overused argument and IMHO wrong way to sell Rust. The reality is, even if 100% of C bugs were memory safety related, that still does not mean every C program is riddled with bugs. If that were the case, nobody would write C programs in the first place. There is a strong selection bias in play here. You only see times where memory safety caused an issue because you get a segfault/overflow/etc but just have invisible correct behavior at all other places. Maybe I was lucky with the people and companies I worked at, but memory safety overall has never been a big issue with our C softwares. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's definitely not any kind of plague. Still I'm learning Rust, so why? For me, it has to do with the library ecosystem. It's very hard to find good quality, easily pluggable, performant C libraries. You always end up having to re implement half of the data structures you need, or use sub par configuration formats just because you don't have readily available libraries. I think this is a much more compelling, and frankly true, argument for C programmers to use Rust.
frozencell 4y ago
- mathverse 4y ago
  No idea why your comment is downvoted. By buying Volvo products you are supporting a hostile power, China. A country that does not even allow our companies to operate in China without nonsense restrictions like joint ventures with local companies that strip our companies out of IP and know how. Due to the recent events in Ukraine and Russia things like this should be really talked about.
  - qzw 4y ago
    I believe China recently removed the joint-venture requirement. It's either a sign that China's maturing and slowing economy is no longer so attractive that they can impose such an onerous requirement, or that China thinks it's already gotten everything out of Western companies and now is at technological parity. Or maybe both.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      The did, for new auto manufacturers, which AFAIK just meant Tesla. Other parts of their economy still requires joint ventures, though.
  - frozencell 4y ago
    I accept the downvotes, I don't say Volvo cars are not "good", "fun" or whatabout. Not my point. I do not want to interfere with anyone having fun with Volvo cars.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    I love how people keep complaining about China, while buying "Made In China" products every single day, somehow buying habits and morals don't get in sync.
generj 4y ago
You’d think so, and yet when I test drove a Volvo the A/C controls were only accessible via touchscreen. Not separate physical controls. No voice commands. Only the ability to tap on the touchscreen at least three times to change the A/C. It was a real bummer and soured me on the brand. It’s hard to believe they are safety focused with design decisions like that.
- helloguillecl 4y ago
  I hate this. But I don't need to adjust the AC either, which is a better solution IMHO, because it works so good.
Grazester 4y ago
Modern volvo's are terrible cars where it comes to reliably. I guess yours is holding out for now. https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-vehicle-dependability-study https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-vehi...

nazka 4y ago

You may end up liking it too much. :D Just a few warnings. Everybody when they start are “fighting with the borrow checker”. And some people are frustrated by it. But you have to see that it is a good thing. Because Rust is warning you about a whole type of bug that your old way of doing things were actually creating this kind of bug. And now rust can catch them! It’s like a guy the frustration of someone coming from a dynamic language to a typed language and being frustrated because he has a type number but now he wants it to be a string. Sure you can do that in a dynamic language but it can created all kind of bug. And another point. Remember what the language is made for and also not made for. Yes you are going to be faster in X language for different things. But for what Rust is good at, the power it gives you, the dev experience, and the performance are amazing. I usually would grab Typescript first for the back and then reach to Rust where speed and security safety is critical. And it’s so good to code in it. Have fun!

Galanwe 4y ago
> Rust is telling that your old way of doing things were actually creating a whole kind of bug that now rust can catch! As an experienced C programmer learning Rust, my frustration is less "oh it prevented a bug I would have made" and more "no but its fine in this context leave me alone" :-)
- unrealhoang 4y ago
  Unsafe, pointer and transmute will tell Rust to leave you alone.
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    At the cost of having most of the community saying that you can't code and are irresponsible any time your code comes up.
    - unrealhoang 4y ago
      If only you make a library out of it, and it’s unsound. Not so different from any other programming language community I guess.
      - herbstein 4y ago
        One of the things that set off the whole actix debacle was a PR removing unsafe code with the equivalent safe code was rejected, even as it was shown to cause unsoundness reachable by safe code using the framework.
    - jmillikin 4y ago
      So tell them off and carry on? Why would you care about their opinion? Writing low-level systems code often that involves pointer arithmetic or type punning. The whole point of Rust is to be able to write such code with the iffy parts clearly delimited.
    - bogeholm 4y ago
      The actix-web thing, where a couple of unsound optimizations in a popular library caused some drama? Yeah it was kind of unfortunate, and I think resolved by now? As a saying goes (in some locations), “Now we probably can’t boil more soup from those bones”.
- rapsey 4y ago
  Yeah it is all those other C programmers causing memory corruption.
  - izacus 4y ago
    Or you know, sometimes the tooling just simply is inflexible and can't figure out what is it the code is trying to do. There's a reason why parsin code is a NP-complete problem.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Unfortunately, "it is fine in this context leave me alone" is often incorrect now or at the very least will be incorrect in the future when some other change breaks invariants that you are using to justify its correctness today. This is not always the case, but we observe very clearly that even C++ programmers using modern smart-pointer style fuck up object ownership and lifetimes.
  - mustache_kimono 4y ago
    Although I think much of this is technically true, I think this is wrong way to "sell" Rust to C programmers. A far better approach is to say "Rust is a completely different paradigm that you may have to learn," because when you start to use closures, iterators, etc., it definitely is. It's not C. It's OCaml is C's clothing. It will allow you to beat it into submission, but if you have to beat it there is probably a better way. There is this belief "I know C so I know what's fast here", and, while that's sometimes true, I think it's wrong often enough re: Rust to try doing things a different way at a relatively high level. I think when you're starting off with Rust your goal should be to implement virtually everything in the dumbest/most obvious/Python-ic way possible, and then to experiment with optimization/rewrites. And while you should try the thing "You know to be fast because you know C" you should also spend that time reading how the std lib implemented a feature and leaning on the std lib, benchmarking as you go. One reason is because the paradigm is obviously different. Another is because the std lib has lots of features for common uses which are optimized very carefully, which C just doesn't have, and one shouldn't ignore/forget that.
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      Sure. IMO, Rust should be sold to CTOs and regulators. The fact that our industry doesn't seem to be taking memory safety seriously for applications that operate on untrusted data is frankly an embarrassment. I don't doubt that people will want to keep using the thing they are used to a like. I'm saying that we need a plan to solve memory safety as an industry.
  - Galanwe 4y ago
    > Unfortunately, "it is fine in this context leave me alone" is often incorrect That's a very overused argument and IMHO wrong way to sell Rust. The reality is, even if 100% of C bugs were memory safety related, that still does not mean every C program is riddled with bugs. If that were the case, nobody would write C programs in the first place. There is a strong selection bias in play here. You only see times where memory safety caused an issue because you get a segfault/overflow/etc but just have invisible correct behavior at all other places. Maybe I was lucky with the people and companies I worked at, but memory safety overall has never been a big issue with our C softwares. Sure it happens from time to time, but it's definitely not any kind of plague. Still I'm learning Rust, so why? For me, it has to do with the library ecosystem. It's very hard to find good quality, easily pluggable, performant C libraries. You always end up having to re implement half of the data structures you need, or use sub par configuration formats just because you don't have readily available libraries. I think this is a much more compelling, and frankly true, argument for C programmers to use Rust.

frozencell 4y ago

mathverse 4y ago
No idea why your comment is downvoted. By buying Volvo products you are supporting a hostile power, China. A country that does not even allow our companies to operate in China without nonsense restrictions like joint ventures with local companies that strip our companies out of IP and know how. Due to the recent events in Ukraine and Russia things like this should be really talked about.
- qzw 4y ago
  I believe China recently removed the joint-venture requirement. It's either a sign that China's maturing and slowing economy is no longer so attractive that they can impose such an onerous requirement, or that China thinks it's already gotten everything out of Western companies and now is at technological parity. Or maybe both.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The did, for new auto manufacturers, which AFAIK just meant Tesla. Other parts of their economy still requires joint ventures, though.
- frozencell 4y ago
  I accept the downvotes, I don't say Volvo cars are not "good", "fun" or whatabout. Not my point. I do not want to interfere with anyone having fun with Volvo cars.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I love how people keep complaining about China, while buying "Made In China" products every single day, somehow buying habits and morals don't get in sync.

generj 4y ago

You’d think so, and yet when I test drove a Volvo the A/C controls were only accessible via touchscreen. Not separate physical controls. No voice commands. Only the ability to tap on the touchscreen at least three times to change the A/C. It was a real bummer and soured me on the brand. It’s hard to believe they are safety focused with design decisions like that.

helloguillecl 4y ago
I hate this. But I don't need to adjust the AC either, which is a better solution IMHO, because it works so good.

Grazester 4y ago

Modern volvo's are terrible cars where it comes to reliably. I guess yours is holding out for now. https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-vehicle-dependability-study https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-vehi...