5 ms·

ADA has existed for a loooong time

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
And the market for available ADA devs is ... <crickets> Even the USAF and defense contractors like Lockheed Martin switched to C++ from ADA for the F-35. ADA is basically dead and buried outside of maintenance for 35+ year old planes, but I doubt those are seeing much active SW development done on them.
- aliqot 4y ago
  > ADA is basically dead and buried This made me clutch my chest and gasp and I have no idea why
- 29athrowaway 4y ago
  And the results suck
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Products can suck regardless of the programing language used.
    - 29athrowaway 4y ago
      They spent trillions of dollars in the project including millions of dollars of rework. I would rather feed students in school quality food, give them school supplies, and take care of their needs, rather than wasting valuable resources fixing avoidable defects.
- tmtvl 4y ago
  I think that's a good indication that the reason Rust has become relatively popular is more likely to be its status as the new cool thing rather than anyone actually caring about safety and correctness.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    I think it being open source from the get go has also made it a lot more viable.
    - diydsp 4y ago
      That's made it accessible to amateurs, but cost is less relevant in safety industries than reliability.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        It’s relevant in terms of there being a skilled developer pool to hire from. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of software technologies that have been success have done so by being accessible to hobbiests to install locally, even if that’s not their primary use case.
        Jtsummers 4y ago
        The good news about professional programmers is that they're capable of learning. Ada is not a hard language to learn, if you have some familiarity with procedural programming (which 99.99% of programmers do). Considering the amount of time spent on safety-critical systems, there's enough time to train up a new hire that only knows one language on Ada, assuming they're actually a competent programmer.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Surely the biggest thing has been accessibility from the start? It’s all good and well to hear about Ada but how did one start using it for free at home to learn and then evangelize it in the work place? How did one find learning materials about it in the same amount as an openly available language? How did one contribute back to the language ? Lots of cool stuff happens in proprietary spaces first. OSS variants tend to gain traction very quickly though
    - pyjarrett 4y ago
- bregma 4y ago
  Hmmm, I work providing the toolchains for a popular embedded realtime OS used in many safety-critical applications including auto and I have seen a rise in demand for Ada. Not ADA of course, which is an American law and does not apply to most international manufacturers. I've also had queries about Rust, but it's not going to be available in safety-critical systems for many years. Part of the safety argument is toolchain adherence to a published standard, and there is no such thing for the Rusts (any version). In the in-dash infotainment systems anything goes, so they often run Linux (unsafe) and Python (unsafe) or even Perl (unsafe).
  - froh 4y ago
    for FOSS the reference implementation is co-created by the consumers of the software. the users will only accept a new release if it fits their functional needs and passes their verifications. the Linux kernel, the toolchain, or libraries like ssl libs are co created by the very organisations that consume the software. FB, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM with red hat, Suse, Oracle, SAP they all concrete the Linux kernel, and for each kernel release they validate, each of them, the technology. that's how the reference implementation _is_ the standard. same goes for rust, which brilliantly leverages build automation of the cargo package repository to protect the compiler and toolchain from regressions: https://brson.github.io/2017/07/10/how-rust-is-tested https://brson.github.io/2017/07/10/how-rust-is-tested the more crates have sound test suites, the better the quality statement of the compiler is.
    - bregma 4y ago
      Self certification is not going to pass muster with third-party safety auditors. Boeing tried it and the nose kept pointing down.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Actually they make enough noise to keep 7 compiler vendors in business for the last 40 years, with regular ISO standard updates. It is a little more than just maintenance. https://www.adacore.com/ https://www.adacore.com/ https://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers.html https://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers.html https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/apexada https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/apexada https://www.ddci.com/products_score/ https://www.ddci.com/products_score/ http://www.irvine.com/tech.html http://www.irvine.com/tech.html http://www.ocsystems.com/w/index.php/OCS:PowerAda http://www.ocsystems.com/w/index.php/OCS:PowerAda http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/janus95/j-ada95.htm http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/janus95/j-ada95.htm

And the market for available ADA devs is ... <crickets> Even the USAF and defense contractors like Lockheed Martin switched to C++ from ADA for the F-35. ADA is basically dead and buried outside of maintenance for 35+ year old planes, but I doubt those are seeing much active SW development done on them.

aliqot 4y ago
> ADA is basically dead and buried This made me clutch my chest and gasp and I have no idea why
29athrowaway 4y ago
And the results suck
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Products can suck regardless of the programing language used.
  - 29athrowaway 4y ago
    They spent trillions of dollars in the project including millions of dollars of rework. I would rather feed students in school quality food, give them school supplies, and take care of their needs, rather than wasting valuable resources fixing avoidable defects.
tmtvl 4y ago
I think that's a good indication that the reason Rust has become relatively popular is more likely to be its status as the new cool thing rather than anyone actually caring about safety and correctness.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I think it being open source from the get go has also made it a lot more viable.
  - diydsp 4y ago
    That's made it accessible to amateurs, but cost is less relevant in safety industries than reliability.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      It’s relevant in terms of there being a skilled developer pool to hire from. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of software technologies that have been success have done so by being accessible to hobbiests to install locally, even if that’s not their primary use case.
      - Jtsummers 4y ago
        The good news about professional programmers is that they're capable of learning. Ada is not a hard language to learn, if you have some familiarity with procedural programming (which 99.99% of programmers do). Considering the amount of time spent on safety-critical systems, there's enough time to train up a new hire that only knows one language on Ada, assuming they're actually a competent programmer.
- dagmx 4y ago
  Surely the biggest thing has been accessibility from the start? It’s all good and well to hear about Ada but how did one start using it for free at home to learn and then evangelize it in the work place? How did one find learning materials about it in the same amount as an openly available language? How did one contribute back to the language ? Lots of cool stuff happens in proprietary spaces first. OSS variants tend to gain traction very quickly though
  - pyjarrett 4y ago
bregma 4y ago
Hmmm, I work providing the toolchains for a popular embedded realtime OS used in many safety-critical applications including auto and I have seen a rise in demand for Ada. Not ADA of course, which is an American law and does not apply to most international manufacturers. I've also had queries about Rust, but it's not going to be available in safety-critical systems for many years. Part of the safety argument is toolchain adherence to a published standard, and there is no such thing for the Rusts (any version). In the in-dash infotainment systems anything goes, so they often run Linux (unsafe) and Python (unsafe) or even Perl (unsafe).
- froh 4y ago
  for FOSS the reference implementation is co-created by the consumers of the software. the users will only accept a new release if it fits their functional needs and passes their verifications. the Linux kernel, the toolchain, or libraries like ssl libs are co created by the very organisations that consume the software. FB, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, IBM with red hat, Suse, Oracle, SAP they all concrete the Linux kernel, and for each kernel release they validate, each of them, the technology. that's how the reference implementation _is_ the standard. same goes for rust, which brilliantly leverages build automation of the cargo package repository to protect the compiler and toolchain from regressions: https://brson.github.io/2017/07/10/how-rust-is-tested https://brson.github.io/2017/07/10/how-rust-is-tested the more crates have sound test suites, the better the quality statement of the compiler is.
  - bregma 4y ago
    Self certification is not going to pass muster with third-party safety auditors. Boeing tried it and the nose kept pointing down.
pjmlp 4y ago
Actually they make enough noise to keep 7 compiler vendors in business for the last 40 years, with regular ISO standard updates. It is a little more than just maintenance. https://www.adacore.com/ https://www.adacore.com/ https://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers.html https://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers.html https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/apexada https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/apexada https://www.ddci.com/products_score/ https://www.ddci.com/products_score/ http://www.irvine.com/tech.html http://www.irvine.com/tech.html http://www.ocsystems.com/w/index.php/OCS:PowerAda http://www.ocsystems.com/w/index.php/OCS:PowerAda http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/janus95/j-ada95.htm http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/janus95/j-ada95.htm