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Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition. Somehow though, that is the worst for you

Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition. Somehow though, that is the worst for you, while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. The amazing thing is that you say you are a huge fan of engine diversity - exactly what Apple is totally blocking. Not much Firefox can do with their engine when iOS is their most important platform by far (note the countries they are strong in). Unless Apple changes policy they isn't much point in FF investing in their engine.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
My comment said nothing about Safari or iOS, and Google's pushing goes far beyond just Android. Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. It's even present in Gmail, Sheets, etc on iOS, where instead of using the default browser when tapping links it will show a chooser that includes Chrome even when Chrome isn't installed. Furthermore, Chrome is bundled in the installers of various other things. I'm saying to go ahead and put those regulations in place to force browser choice, but that alone won't save Mozilla. People will switch browsers on iOS in large numbers, but it won't be to Firefox because as I mentioned, to average users it offers nothing that Chrome doesn't. A handful of technically inclined users will start using Firefox on iOS while everybody else switches to Chrome or keeps using Safari. Firefox needs a differentiator that Joe Q. Public cares about, and I sincerely hope they can come up with something once enforcements have been put in place because otherwise its course will remain unchanged.
- tomComb 4y ago
  Now I’m starting to wonder … perhaps you aren’t aware that all that stuff you are writing about iOS is simply not relevant to your stated goals. I’ll say it again, Apple simply does not allow competing browser engines. Complaining about Google competing hard, while refusing to even acknowledge that Apple simply refuses to compete is weird.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    I fully expect that Apple will be forced to allow other engines on iOS. It's inevitable. My point is that the opening up is very unlikely to be the saving grace that some seem to think it will be.
- rascul 4y ago
  > Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. This has not been my experience. I even did a Google search for something random and could not find any "Download Chrome!" message anywhere (I'm using Firefox). I do remember some years back there was such a message somewhere on Google search, though. I wonder if maybe one of my uBlock Origin lists has it blocked.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    I just tested and I couldn't get it to appear when using Firefox on macOS or Windows or under Edge on macOS, but it appeared right away under Edge for Windows[0] and Safari on macOS[1]. So it seems that they target default browser configs specifically. On iOS in a private tab, Google doesn't try to push Chrome but instead the Google app, which functions as a browser. [0]: https://i.ibb.co/Htk645k/Screenshot-2022-09-23-183455.png https://i.ibb.co/Htk645k/Screenshot-2022-09-23-183455.png [1]: https://i.ibb.co/thnRN7P/Screenshot-2022-09-23-at-6-42-14-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/thnRN7P/Screenshot-2022-09-23-at-6-42-14-PM...
    - rascul 4y ago
      Now that I see your screenshots it is something that I vaguely recall seeing in the past.
    - jrnichols 4y ago
      I don't see those particular popups anymore, but I do see ones just like that for websites that will now let me log in with my Google account. They've become almost as obnoxious as the GDPR banners that "Hush" finally extinguished.
judge2020 4y ago
> while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. I see people using Chrome on iOS - they use it not because they think they're running Blink/V8, they use it because Google brings their own password syncing and UI to it. Same for something like Firefox Focus. Is it really anticompetitive if allowing a different rendering engine would result in less than (maybe) 0.01% of users actually switching due to the change?

kitsunesoba 4y ago

My comment said nothing about Safari or iOS, and Google's pushing goes far beyond just Android. Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. It's even present in Gmail, Sheets, etc on iOS, where instead of using the default browser when tapping links it will show a chooser that includes Chrome even when Chrome isn't installed. Furthermore, Chrome is bundled in the installers of various other things. I'm saying to go ahead and put those regulations in place to force browser choice, but that alone won't save Mozilla. People will switch browsers on iOS in large numbers, but it won't be to Firefox because as I mentioned, to average users it offers nothing that Chrome doesn't. A handful of technically inclined users will start using Firefox on iOS while everybody else switches to Chrome or keeps using Safari. Firefox needs a differentiator that Joe Q. Public cares about, and I sincerely hope they can come up with something once enforcements have been put in place because otherwise its course will remain unchanged.

tomComb 4y ago
Now I’m starting to wonder … perhaps you aren’t aware that all that stuff you are writing about iOS is simply not relevant to your stated goals. I’ll say it again, Apple simply does not allow competing browser engines. Complaining about Google competing hard, while refusing to even acknowledge that Apple simply refuses to compete is weird.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I fully expect that Apple will be forced to allow other engines on iOS. It's inevitable. My point is that the opening up is very unlikely to be the saving grace that some seem to think it will be.
rascul 4y ago
> Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. This has not been my experience. I even did a Google search for something random and could not find any "Download Chrome!" message anywhere (I'm using Firefox). I do remember some years back there was such a message somewhere on Google search, though. I wonder if maybe one of my uBlock Origin lists has it blocked.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I just tested and I couldn't get it to appear when using Firefox on macOS or Windows or under Edge on macOS, but it appeared right away under Edge for Windows[0] and Safari on macOS[1]. So it seems that they target default browser configs specifically. On iOS in a private tab, Google doesn't try to push Chrome but instead the Google app, which functions as a browser. [0]: https://i.ibb.co/Htk645k/Screenshot-2022-09-23-183455.png https://i.ibb.co/Htk645k/Screenshot-2022-09-23-183455.png [1]: https://i.ibb.co/thnRN7P/Screenshot-2022-09-23-at-6-42-14-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/thnRN7P/Screenshot-2022-09-23-at-6-42-14-PM...
  - rascul 4y ago
    Now that I see your screenshots it is something that I vaguely recall seeing in the past.
  - jrnichols 4y ago
    I don't see those particular popups anymore, but I do see ones just like that for websites that will now let me log in with my Google account. They've become almost as obnoxious as the GDPR banners that "Hush" finally extinguished.

judge2020 4y ago

> while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. I see people using Chrome on iOS - they use it not because they think they're running Blink/V8, they use it because Google brings their own password syncing and UI to it. Same for something like Firefox Focus. Is it really anticompetitive if allowing a different rendering engine would result in less than (maybe) 0.01% of users actually switching due to the change?