4 ms·

I think it looks absolutely gorgeous, but it helps a lot if you don't expect it to be true to Tolkien, because they seem to be intentionally getting everything

by mcv 4y ago

I think it looks absolutely gorgeous, but it helps a lot if you don't expect it to be true to Tolkien, because they seem to be intentionally getting everything wrong. And I don't see why, because I think the story would make a ton more sense if they stuck a bit more closely to the events described by Tolkien (plus a ton of invention obviously). I'm enjoying it and I'll keep watching it, but they've stirred the entire history into an incomprehensible soup, and the questionable plot keeps jerking characters around to places where they shouldn't be. But if you can sit back and not think too hard about it, it's great. Especially the Disa+Durin+Elrond scenes.

parkingrift 4y ago
They don't have rights to the source material so they literally cannot get it right.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Oh seriously? But they are allowed to use the characters? How does that work?
  - cygx 4y ago
    Not a lawyer, but I'm assuming anyone who's mentioned in the Hobbit, the trilogy and the annexes (ie the stuff Amazon bought the rights to) even in passing can make an appearance. However, if these people do things exclusively described elsewhere in the way they are described in those other works, there's an issue...
  - mcphage 4y ago
    Remember recently when a Netflix got sued by Arthur Conan Doyle's estate, because they showed Sherlock Holmes being emotional? The argument was that while the early Sherlock stories were in the public domain, it wasn't until the later stories that Sherlock showed more emotion, and those later stories are not yet in the public domain.
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    They have access to: Fellowship of the ring, the two towers, return of the king, appendices, and the hobbit. They cannot even accidentally make a Tolkien-accurate story in the universe unless it’s directly depicted in one of the sources I listed above. My assumption here is that they chose to intentionally make a unique story to avoid a lawsuit. However, this is also the equivalent to rewriting the backstory for Jesus and telling Catholics to just give it a chance because the cinematography is so good.
- mcv 4y ago
  From what I understand, they have the rights to the Appendix of LotR, and while that's not remotely a complete story, there's a lot of events described there, and they're getting all of them wrong. If they didn't have the rights at all, maybe they shouldn't have pretended it was Tolkien and not used his names. I would have loved an original big fantasy show, but I think it's pretty clear that would never have gotten this kind of budget. They're entirely trading on Tolkien's name and not fulfilling that promise.
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    The problem is the Tolkien estate. Amazon cannot depict something in the appendices unless it was exhaustively depicted. They cannot accidentally get bits of backstory correct.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Well they stuck Tolkien on the front and we’re expecting Tolkien-ish. But it’s generic fantasy and the characters don’t seem to match. Given the supposed pedigree, people are judging it based on that and rightly so. There are better shows especially if you want diverse characters. Go watch The Expanse again. I watched the first three episodes and it’s meh if you ignore the LotR connection. But still kinda boring after 3 eps.
- danjoredd 4y ago
  I miss when Tolkien was compared more to CS Lewis than Game of Thrones. It feels that since GoT came out, whoever has the rights to Middle Earth tries to give it a grimdark feel.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    I’ve seen some episodes of House of the Dragon too. I have never read the books. So the black characters may have been shoehorned in. I have no idea. But a bunch of stuff has happened. Definitely a better show.
- mcv 4y ago
  The problem is that they're trying to do too much at once, and therefore not really committing to anything at all. They want to tell the story of Celebrimbor forging the rings, but first they need to get the dwarfs' help with that forge, therefore Elrond has to make friends with Durin where they subtly hint at the balrog. Meanwhile Galadriel has to make some irrational decisions in order to end up in Numenor so we can already foreshadow the destruction of Numenor. Meanwhile there's also Orcs turning the southlands into Mordor. And all of these require Sauron, who is still absent. What I would do instead is this: Season 1: Galadriel founds Eregion, Celebrimbor makes friends with the dwarfs (with Elrond's help, if we really have to have him), and they get to work making that forge and whatever else Celebrimbor needs, possibly with some politics and negotiations. Numenorian ships arrive and set up some trading posts all over the coast. We probably get to see some stuff happening in the southlands, including Orcs preparing to turn it into Mordor on behalf of Sauron who we don't see there. Instead Sauron shows up in disguise and tries to persuade Gil-Galad, gets blown off, eventually succeeds with Celebrimbor, and teaches him how to forge the rings. The rings get forged. The season ends with Sauron completing Barad-Dur and forging the One Ring in Mount Doom. (Or maybe he does that in the penultimate episode and in the last one he starts his invasion?) Season 2: Sauron attacks Eregion! This season is mostly going to be war. It's not going well for the elves. The Numenorians are doing great, but not getting involved very much yet, until the final episode when they arrive just in the nick of time to bail the elves out. Together they defeat Sauron. Everybody is happy and all is right in the world. Season 3: The focus shifts to Numenor. They grow more powerful, their trading posts turn into forts and cities, but they also grow more jealous of the elves. Rebellion and division in Numenor. Sauron is subtly corrupting some human kings, giving them rings, and turning them into nazgul. (Or maybe they got those rings in an earlier season? When do the dwarfs actually get their rings?) This season lacks a bit of a climax. Probably something ring-wraith related. Or maybe the repentance of Tar-Palantir when he realizes how Numenor is going wrong? Season 4: Ar-Pharazon seizes power! His expedition to capture Sauron. All the events up to the fall of Numenor. Spectacular climax assured. We've got to know Elendil and his family during this season and they escape the destruction. Season 5: Elendil makes friends with the elves and they form the Last Alliance, fight Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad die, and Isildur refuses to destroy the ring. That's epic. It's in the right order. Every story has room to be told, but keeps focus. There's plenty of room to invent more stuff in every season. You can still have Sindar in the southlands discover Orcs there, for example. Just let all the big events each have their own season.

by mcv 4y ago

parkingrift 4y ago

They don't have rights to the source material so they literally cannot get it right.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Oh seriously? But they are allowed to use the characters? How does that work?
- cygx 4y ago
  Not a lawyer, but I'm assuming anyone who's mentioned in the Hobbit, the trilogy and the annexes (ie the stuff Amazon bought the rights to) even in passing can make an appearance. However, if these people do things exclusively described elsewhere in the way they are described in those other works, there's an issue...
- mcphage 4y ago
  Remember recently when a Netflix got sued by Arthur Conan Doyle's estate, because they showed Sherlock Holmes being emotional? The argument was that while the early Sherlock stories were in the public domain, it wasn't until the later stories that Sherlock showed more emotion, and those later stories are not yet in the public domain.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  They have access to: Fellowship of the ring, the two towers, return of the king, appendices, and the hobbit. They cannot even accidentally make a Tolkien-accurate story in the universe unless it’s directly depicted in one of the sources I listed above. My assumption here is that they chose to intentionally make a unique story to avoid a lawsuit. However, this is also the equivalent to rewriting the backstory for Jesus and telling Catholics to just give it a chance because the cinematography is so good.
mcv 4y ago
From what I understand, they have the rights to the Appendix of LotR, and while that's not remotely a complete story, there's a lot of events described there, and they're getting all of them wrong. If they didn't have the rights at all, maybe they shouldn't have pretended it was Tolkien and not used his names. I would have loved an original big fantasy show, but I think it's pretty clear that would never have gotten this kind of budget. They're entirely trading on Tolkien's name and not fulfilling that promise.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  The problem is the Tolkien estate. Amazon cannot depict something in the appendices unless it was exhaustively depicted. They cannot accidentally get bits of backstory correct.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago

Well they stuck Tolkien on the front and we’re expecting Tolkien-ish. But it’s generic fantasy and the characters don’t seem to match. Given the supposed pedigree, people are judging it based on that and rightly so. There are better shows especially if you want diverse characters. Go watch The Expanse again. I watched the first three episodes and it’s meh if you ignore the LotR connection. But still kinda boring after 3 eps.

danjoredd 4y ago
I miss when Tolkien was compared more to CS Lewis than Game of Thrones. It feels that since GoT came out, whoever has the rights to Middle Earth tries to give it a grimdark feel.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  I’ve seen some episodes of House of the Dragon too. I have never read the books. So the black characters may have been shoehorned in. I have no idea. But a bunch of stuff has happened. Definitely a better show.
mcv 4y ago
The problem is that they're trying to do too much at once, and therefore not really committing to anything at all. They want to tell the story of Celebrimbor forging the rings, but first they need to get the dwarfs' help with that forge, therefore Elrond has to make friends with Durin where they subtly hint at the balrog. Meanwhile Galadriel has to make some irrational decisions in order to end up in Numenor so we can already foreshadow the destruction of Numenor. Meanwhile there's also Orcs turning the southlands into Mordor. And all of these require Sauron, who is still absent. What I would do instead is this: Season 1: Galadriel founds Eregion, Celebrimbor makes friends with the dwarfs (with Elrond's help, if we really have to have him), and they get to work making that forge and whatever else Celebrimbor needs, possibly with some politics and negotiations. Numenorian ships arrive and set up some trading posts all over the coast. We probably get to see some stuff happening in the southlands, including Orcs preparing to turn it into Mordor on behalf of Sauron who we don't see there. Instead Sauron shows up in disguise and tries to persuade Gil-Galad, gets blown off, eventually succeeds with Celebrimbor, and teaches him how to forge the rings. The rings get forged. The season ends with Sauron completing Barad-Dur and forging the One Ring in Mount Doom. (Or maybe he does that in the penultimate episode and in the last one he starts his invasion?) Season 2: Sauron attacks Eregion! This season is mostly going to be war. It's not going well for the elves. The Numenorians are doing great, but not getting involved very much yet, until the final episode when they arrive just in the nick of time to bail the elves out. Together they defeat Sauron. Everybody is happy and all is right in the world. Season 3: The focus shifts to Numenor. They grow more powerful, their trading posts turn into forts and cities, but they also grow more jealous of the elves. Rebellion and division in Numenor. Sauron is subtly corrupting some human kings, giving them rings, and turning them into nazgul. (Or maybe they got those rings in an earlier season? When do the dwarfs actually get their rings?) This season lacks a bit of a climax. Probably something ring-wraith related. Or maybe the repentance of Tar-Palantir when he realizes how Numenor is going wrong? Season 4: Ar-Pharazon seizes power! His expedition to capture Sauron. All the events up to the fall of Numenor. Spectacular climax assured. We've got to know Elendil and his family during this season and they escape the destruction. Season 5: Elendil makes friends with the elves and they form the Last Alliance, fight Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad die, and Isildur refuses to destroy the ring. That's epic. It's in the right order. Every story has room to be told, but keeps focus. There's plenty of room to invent more stuff in every season. You can still have Sindar in the southlands discover Orcs there, for example. Just let all the big events each have their own season.