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While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force t

While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force to contend with, and they've aggressively pushed Chrome ever since), the other big thing is that Mozilla ceased to be a leader. They started chasing Chrome and put Firefox on the back burner, and now they're reaping what they've sown. I am a huge proponent of web engine diversity, but Mozilla is going to have to do some serious self-reflection and enact major changes internally to have a fighting chance. As things stand, even if regulation limiting MS/Google/Apple's abilities to self-promote went into place it will make precious little difference because Firefox gives few reasons for non-technical users to switch to it. As big of a splash as Manifest V3 has been, it's ultimately a storm in a teacup that only a portion of technical users know and care about.

Osmose 4y ago
The quality of Firefox has nothing to do with the anti-competitive actions of platforms. This affects Vivaldi, Brave, and all the 3rd-party web browsers (or the platform browsers on other platforms, e.g. Chrome on Windows). Mozilla doesn't make this argument because their browser share is lower than it used to be, but because diversity, not domination, is the goal.
- shultays 4y ago
  How come Chrome towers over Edge then?
  - fabrice_d 4y ago
    A marketing budget in the billions (including shady bundling deals), and free Chrome advertising on top web properties helps quite a bit.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I would say that diversity without significant numbers, at least when it comes to web engines, is meaningless. If Firefox remains at ~2% marketshare, web developers will pay it no more regard than they do now. It needs to be more popular so proper support for it can't be shrugged off, and so Mozilla has a stronger hand at the web standards table to stop Google from railroading whatever they please through.
tomComb 4y ago
Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition. Somehow though, that is the worst for you, while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. The amazing thing is that you say you are a huge fan of engine diversity - exactly what Apple is totally blocking. Not much Firefox can do with their engine when iOS is their most important platform by far (note the countries they are strong in). Unless Apple changes policy they isn't much point in FF investing in their engine.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  My comment said nothing about Safari or iOS, and Google's pushing goes far beyond just Android. Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. It's even present in Gmail, Sheets, etc on iOS, where instead of using the default browser when tapping links it will show a chooser that includes Chrome even when Chrome isn't installed. Furthermore, Chrome is bundled in the installers of various other things. I'm saying to go ahead and put those regulations in place to force browser choice, but that alone won't save Mozilla. People will switch browsers on iOS in large numbers, but it won't be to Firefox because as I mentioned, to average users it offers nothing that Chrome doesn't. A handful of technically inclined users will start using Firefox on iOS while everybody else switches to Chrome or keeps using Safari. Firefox needs a differentiator that Joe Q. Public cares about, and I sincerely hope they can come up with something once enforcements have been put in place because otherwise its course will remain unchanged.
  - tomComb 4y ago
    Now I’m starting to wonder … perhaps you aren’t aware that all that stuff you are writing about iOS is simply not relevant to your stated goals. I’ll say it again, Apple simply does not allow competing browser engines. Complaining about Google competing hard, while refusing to even acknowledge that Apple simply refuses to compete is weird.
    - 4y ago

Osmose 4y ago

The quality of Firefox has nothing to do with the anti-competitive actions of platforms. This affects Vivaldi, Brave, and all the 3rd-party web browsers (or the platform browsers on other platforms, e.g. Chrome on Windows). Mozilla doesn't make this argument because their browser share is lower than it used to be, but because diversity, not domination, is the goal.

shultays 4y ago
How come Chrome towers over Edge then?
- fabrice_d 4y ago
  A marketing budget in the billions (including shady bundling deals), and free Chrome advertising on top web properties helps quite a bit.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
I would say that diversity without significant numbers, at least when it comes to web engines, is meaningless. If Firefox remains at ~2% marketshare, web developers will pay it no more regard than they do now. It needs to be more popular so proper support for it can't be shrugged off, and so Mozilla has a stronger hand at the web standards table to stop Google from railroading whatever they please through.

tomComb 4y ago

Google pushing their product while allowing anyone to easily change default browser on Android is called competition. Somehow though, that is the worst for you, while Apple simply blocking any competition on iOS (everything is Safari under the hood) is fine. The amazing thing is that you say you are a huge fan of engine diversity - exactly what Apple is totally blocking. Not much Firefox can do with their engine when iOS is their most important platform by far (note the countries they are strong in). Unless Apple changes policy they isn't much point in FF investing in their engine.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
My comment said nothing about Safari or iOS, and Google's pushing goes far beyond just Android. Using any Google product in a non-Google browser will trigger a "Download Chrome!" dialog, and that includes things like Google's search which practically everybody uses. It's even present in Gmail, Sheets, etc on iOS, where instead of using the default browser when tapping links it will show a chooser that includes Chrome even when Chrome isn't installed. Furthermore, Chrome is bundled in the installers of various other things. I'm saying to go ahead and put those regulations in place to force browser choice, but that alone won't save Mozilla. People will switch browsers on iOS in large numbers, but it won't be to Firefox because as I mentioned, to average users it offers nothing that Chrome doesn't. A handful of technically inclined users will start using Firefox on iOS while everybody else switches to Chrome or keeps using Safari. Firefox needs a differentiator that Joe Q. Public cares about, and I sincerely hope they can come up with something once enforcements have been put in place because otherwise its course will remain unchanged.
- tomComb 4y ago
  Now I’m starting to wonder … perhaps you aren’t aware that all that stuff you are writing about iOS is simply not relevant to your stated goals. I’ll say it again, Apple simply does not allow competing browser engines. Complaining about Google competing hard, while refusing to even acknowledge that Apple simply refuses to compete is weird.
  - 4y ago