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The fact that your prime examples of corruption in the west is Washington corruption and corruption in local government indicates you don't have a grasp of what

The fact that your prime examples of corruption in the west is Washington corruption and corruption in local government indicates you don't have a grasp of what truly endemic corruption is like in developing countries. - Do you have to personally slip a DMV official several times the actual required fee whenever you get your license renewed to get them to even look at the application? - Do you have to directly bribe police officers to get them to respond to your complaint? If you were pulled over for a traffic offence would your assumed way out of it be to personally slip something to the police officer? - Do truckers have to routinely bribe state officials when crossing state lines? - Do local officials routinely illegally procure land via the government purse for their own personal use? - Are government officials ever bribed to declare someone dead to allow someone to erroneously claim the totally-not-dead person's property? These are all pretty much regular occurrences in India - a country that is basically middling in terms of corruption on a global scale. And don't worry, they have all of the high level local and national legislative corruption that the US has as well, with the bonus of a civil service and judiciary that are corrupt from the top down to their roots. Outside the west corruption isn't just government officials making bad choices to satisfy their doners and special interests (as bad and dysfunctional as that is). In most developing countries it's a fact of day-to-day life - if you are on the lower rungs of the social ladder you have to personally engage in corruption in order to survive. Getting a home, a business licence, governmental documentation etc etc pretty much always come down to either who you know or who you bribe. And if you're higher up you might be lucky enough to benefit from it.

pphysch 4y ago
It's an interesting phenomenon: the dwindling middle class in the West frowns upon corruption even as it is the lifeblood of the ruling classes. Who do I gotta donate to? Which ZIP code do I gotta live in? Which special "membership plan"/recurring bribe do I have to pay to get access to decent social services? America in particular has institutionalized corruption so that it no longer resembles the bespoke form practiced in developing countries. Media portrayals plays a big role in this. After all, what is corruption but allowing market forces to rule over human rights, justice, and essential public services?
- twblalock 4y ago
  Living in a certain zip code is not corruption, and Americans don't need to bribe social services, or the police, to get on with their daily lives without being molested. There are many countries where that is not the case.
  - short_sells_poo 4y ago
    I saw it described as: The West is corrupt, but in a different way. Politician can be bought for certain projects, people who control the flow of money can be encouraged to let it flow more one way than the other, etc. But trying to bribe a policeman can land you in serious trouble. It's better to pay a $50 fine than try to bribe them with $30 off the books. In other words, in Western society, middle-class corruption is perhaps not really worth it (on average). The stakes have to be much higher than that. Developing countries have more widespread corruption, in that it is part of everyday life. If you want your passport renewed, you have to bribe the clerk, otherwise it will take 1 year. If a policeman stops you, they may well be looking for a bribe and you can make things go much more smoothly by acquiescing. I'd argue that low-level corruption is more immediately annoying to everyday life, but it is the high level corruption that is the real pervasive worldwide issue. In the same way that pickpockets are annoying, but a single corrupt government can plunder the public finances and run the country into ruin.
dasil003 4y ago
I'm dual citizen Brazilian / American, so I understand what you mean about endemic corruption. That said, I think the GP has a point that there is a more subtle higher-level corruption of leadership that is potentially even more damaging over the long term. This form of corruption gets papered over and obfuscated precisely because the beneficiaries are few, rich, and well-trained in politics and PR.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Absolutely spot on. What is the consequence of the fact that in the US there is virtually no correlation between the opinions of the bottom 80% poorer citizens about a given bill, and the likelihood that bill is adopted? While the correlation for the 0.1% wealthier is nearly perfect? Is it less harmful than having to slip a tenner to low-level officials.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    Is that corruption or is it the lack of participation in our democracy? The percentage of people that vote is rather small, especially in the primary elections when it really makes a difference. I think most government action is in alignment with the people who vote and participate the most.
noasaservice 4y ago
- Do you have to personally slip a DMV official several times the actual required fee whenever you get your license renewed to get them to even look at the application? No, but rich companies can use "We are a job creator" to get permission to ignore taxes for terms that are effectively "indefinitely". We all end up paying more for the top-end bribes. You just don't see it. - Do you have to directly bribe police officers to get them to respond to your complaint? If you were pulled over for a traffic offence would your assumed way out of it be to personally slip something to the police officer? If you don't have property of any serious concern, the police do not care. Nor are they required to fill out a police report. What ends up happening are the middle and upper classes with houses get the respect (no bribes), and the lower monetary classes get laughed at. - Do truckers have to routinely bribe state officials when crossing state lines? - Do local officials routinely illegally procure land via the government purse for their own personal use? https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2021/10/25/new-proof-that-police-use-civil-forfeiture-to-take-from-those-who-cant-fight-back/?sh=510f1cb834e8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2021/10/25/... So yeah, it's called Asset Forfeiture, and is how you get abuses like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U... Why need bribes when cops legalized blatant theft?
avgcorrection 4y ago
Hah! Rich people outright buying political influence at the federal level and lower, setting the agenda of the whole nation: not bribery. No: having to bribe policemen and petty officials is true corruption…
- Aunche 4y ago
  It's easy to believe that rich people "outright buy political influence" when you only pay attention to examples of when they happen to get what they want, and don't care about the examples of when they don't: - Bloomberg spent almost $1 billion dollars in his presidential campaign and barely got any delegates - Google constantly gets blocked from rolling out Google Fiber, despite being richer than all the telecom companies combined - Facebook really wants to outsource moderation decision making, so they can point their finger at something when it comes to unpopular moderation decisions. To do so, they created an independent oversight board that cost them $130 million, which is more than their total spending on lobbying. If they could outright buy political influence, they would have Congress make rules instead, which would not only give them more distance, but would have the added benefit (for Facebook) of creating regulatory capture. - Abortion rights got rolled back despite being overwhelmingly championed by billionaires. For example, Warren Buffet has donated over $1 billion to pro-choice charities, and Mackenzie Bezos has donated $300 million. Of course, there are plenty of examples of large-scale outright corruption in American politics, but you're naive if you believe that it would be any better than in countries where you can bribe police officers.
  - Aerroon 4y ago
    This reminds me of the article[0] by Scott Alexander where he makes the case that Americans spend less money on an election cycle than they spend on almonds. You would think that if money ruled the day then a lot more would be spent on politics. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in-almonds/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in...
    - avgcorrection 4y ago

pphysch 4y ago

It's an interesting phenomenon: the dwindling middle class in the West frowns upon corruption even as it is the lifeblood of the ruling classes. Who do I gotta donate to? Which ZIP code do I gotta live in? Which special "membership plan"/recurring bribe do I have to pay to get access to decent social services? America in particular has institutionalized corruption so that it no longer resembles the bespoke form practiced in developing countries. Media portrayals plays a big role in this. After all, what is corruption but allowing market forces to rule over human rights, justice, and essential public services?

twblalock 4y ago
Living in a certain zip code is not corruption, and Americans don't need to bribe social services, or the police, to get on with their daily lives without being molested. There are many countries where that is not the case.
- short_sells_poo 4y ago
  I saw it described as: The West is corrupt, but in a different way. Politician can be bought for certain projects, people who control the flow of money can be encouraged to let it flow more one way than the other, etc. But trying to bribe a policeman can land you in serious trouble. It's better to pay a $50 fine than try to bribe them with $30 off the books. In other words, in Western society, middle-class corruption is perhaps not really worth it (on average). The stakes have to be much higher than that. Developing countries have more widespread corruption, in that it is part of everyday life. If you want your passport renewed, you have to bribe the clerk, otherwise it will take 1 year. If a policeman stops you, they may well be looking for a bribe and you can make things go much more smoothly by acquiescing. I'd argue that low-level corruption is more immediately annoying to everyday life, but it is the high level corruption that is the real pervasive worldwide issue. In the same way that pickpockets are annoying, but a single corrupt government can plunder the public finances and run the country into ruin.

dasil003 4y ago

I'm dual citizen Brazilian / American, so I understand what you mean about endemic corruption. That said, I think the GP has a point that there is a more subtle higher-level corruption of leadership that is potentially even more damaging over the long term. This form of corruption gets papered over and obfuscated precisely because the beneficiaries are few, rich, and well-trained in politics and PR.

andrepd 4y ago
Absolutely spot on. What is the consequence of the fact that in the US there is virtually no correlation between the opinions of the bottom 80% poorer citizens about a given bill, and the likelihood that bill is adopted? While the correlation for the 0.1% wealthier is nearly perfect? Is it less harmful than having to slip a tenner to low-level officials.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  Is that corruption or is it the lack of participation in our democracy? The percentage of people that vote is rather small, especially in the primary elections when it really makes a difference. I think most government action is in alignment with the people who vote and participate the most.

noasaservice 4y ago

- Do you have to personally slip a DMV official several times the actual required fee whenever you get your license renewed to get them to even look at the application? No, but rich companies can use "We are a job creator" to get permission to ignore taxes for terms that are effectively "indefinitely". We all end up paying more for the top-end bribes. You just don't see it. - Do you have to directly bribe police officers to get them to respond to your complaint? If you were pulled over for a traffic offence would your assumed way out of it be to personally slip something to the police officer? If you don't have property of any serious concern, the police do not care. Nor are they required to fill out a police report. What ends up happening are the middle and upper classes with houses get the respect (no bribes), and the lower monetary classes get laughed at. - Do truckers have to routinely bribe state officials when crossing state lines? - Do local officials routinely illegally procure land via the government purse for their own personal use? https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2021/10/25/new-proof-that-police-use-civil-forfeiture-to-take-from-those-who-cant-fight-back/?sh=510f1cb834e8 https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2021/10/25/... So yeah, it's called Asset Forfeiture, and is how you get abuses like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U.S._Currency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._$124,700_in_U... Why need bribes when cops legalized blatant theft?

avgcorrection 4y ago

Hah! Rich people outright buying political influence at the federal level and lower, setting the agenda of the whole nation: not bribery. No: having to bribe policemen and petty officials is true corruption…

Aunche 4y ago
It's easy to believe that rich people "outright buy political influence" when you only pay attention to examples of when they happen to get what they want, and don't care about the examples of when they don't: - Bloomberg spent almost $1 billion dollars in his presidential campaign and barely got any delegates - Google constantly gets blocked from rolling out Google Fiber, despite being richer than all the telecom companies combined - Facebook really wants to outsource moderation decision making, so they can point their finger at something when it comes to unpopular moderation decisions. To do so, they created an independent oversight board that cost them $130 million, which is more than their total spending on lobbying. If they could outright buy political influence, they would have Congress make rules instead, which would not only give them more distance, but would have the added benefit (for Facebook) of creating regulatory capture. - Abortion rights got rolled back despite being overwhelmingly championed by billionaires. For example, Warren Buffet has donated over $1 billion to pro-choice charities, and Mackenzie Bezos has donated $300 million. Of course, there are plenty of examples of large-scale outright corruption in American politics, but you're naive if you believe that it would be any better than in countries where you can bribe police officers.
- Aerroon 4y ago
  This reminds me of the article[0] by Scott Alexander where he makes the case that Americans spend less money on an election cycle than they spend on almonds. You would think that if money ruled the day then a lot more would be spent on politics. [0] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in-almonds/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in...
  - avgcorrection 4y ago