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Beyond the little game of reason, gut is all you've got. Consider our magnificent science. Guess what it stands on? That's right. Pure gut.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Science used to be based on theology. Both Oppenheimer and Whitehead, in their respective histories of science, say that it grew out of a Christian world view - that God created the universe. And not just any God, but a reasonable God, and therefore there was (theological) ground for expecting that the universe could be understood by reason. This was the difference between the start of western science and, say, the Greeks. The Greeks had most of the facts that western science had at 1600. But the Greek gods did random stuff to the universe for random reasons, and within that world view, there was no point systematically and rationally investigating the universe. But that was then. Science now is not built on that world view. Science now is built on the track record of science delivering for the last 400 years. Many (most?) people today believe the scientific method without believing the Christian world view. It remains to be seen whether that 400-year record of success is a sufficient epistemological base for science to continue, but it's certainly more than "pure gut".
- swayvil 4y ago
  Fine. Pure gut and a large account of gut-derived models. I refer only to the foundation. Not what's been built upon it. Even christianity is founded upon gut. The layered authoritarian edifice (be it religious or scientific) is... I'm not sure what you call that. What do you call it when you have a model but have lost the empirical basis for that model?
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Christianity is founded on the resurrection of Jesus as a historical event. Not on "gut". (You can argue that the foundation is false, but it's still not "gut".) > What do you call it when you have a model but have lost the empirical basis for that model? Epistemological zombie? And yes, both science and (much of) Christianity are in that state - Christianity because many "Christian" churches now reject the historicity of the resurrection, and science because Michael Polanyi destroyed logical positivism and they have nothing to replace it with.
    - swayvil 4y ago
      >Christianity is founded... I think that's some of that "epistemological zombie" talk. Surely somebody at some point made an observation. And then interpreted it as "resurrection". Or some metaphor thereof.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Science used to be based on theology. Both Oppenheimer and Whitehead, in their respective histories of science, say that it grew out of a Christian world view - that God created the universe. And not just any God, but a reasonable God, and therefore there was (theological) ground for expecting that the universe could be understood by reason. This was the difference between the start of western science and, say, the Greeks. The Greeks had most of the facts that western science had at 1600. But the Greek gods did random stuff to the universe for random reasons, and within that world view, there was no point systematically and rationally investigating the universe. But that was then. Science now is not built on that world view. Science now is built on the track record of science delivering for the last 400 years. Many (most?) people today believe the scientific method without believing the Christian world view. It remains to be seen whether that 400-year record of success is a sufficient epistemological base for science to continue, but it's certainly more than "pure gut".

swayvil 4y ago
Fine. Pure gut and a large account of gut-derived models. I refer only to the foundation. Not what's been built upon it. Even christianity is founded upon gut. The layered authoritarian edifice (be it religious or scientific) is... I'm not sure what you call that. What do you call it when you have a model but have lost the empirical basis for that model?
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Christianity is founded on the resurrection of Jesus as a historical event. Not on "gut". (You can argue that the foundation is false, but it's still not "gut".) > What do you call it when you have a model but have lost the empirical basis for that model? Epistemological zombie? And yes, both science and (much of) Christianity are in that state - Christianity because many "Christian" churches now reject the historicity of the resurrection, and science because Michael Polanyi destroyed logical positivism and they have nothing to replace it with.
  - swayvil 4y ago
    >Christianity is founded... I think that's some of that "epistemological zombie" talk. Surely somebody at some point made an observation. And then interpreted it as "resurrection". Or some metaphor thereof.