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> My theory on good and bad coffee, oddly, can be summed up by something they talk about in Top Gun: Maverick, about how it isn’t the plane but the pilot flying

> My theory on good and bad coffee, oddly, can be summed up by something they talk about in Top Gun: Maverick, about how it isn’t the plane but the pilot flying it that matters. This is the first thing I learned on barista course (I am not a barista, I got the course as a birthday present because I care a lot about coffee). As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and knowledge to actually check the coffee, diagnose the problem and then fix it. A lot of bad coffee should be understood as coffee shops without a feedback loop that would understand that the coffee is bad and how to fix it. The customers certainly are not good enough, they will just not return and you will be none the wiser about why. I have been to many coffee shops for coffee to observe what looks like a lot of expensive, good quality equipment and then a barista that definitely don't know or don't care about what they are doing. And nobody in sight to spot and fix the problem. It seems like the owners' idea of the business was to have upscale coffee place for coffee snobs like me but like many people missed the critical lesson of quality control, constant improvement and the importance of hiring people who care. Which for some reason is a lot of businesses where the owners' first goal is to make as much money as possible.

cush 4y ago
Shops are opening left and right with specialty beans, great atmosphere, pastries, and the $30k La Marzocco espresso machine, yet the baristas have no training, can't steam milk, and pull shots that taste like battery acid. The reason the coffee costs $6 a cup is to pay the pilot
- criddell 4y ago
  > the $30k La Marzocco espresso machine I think it's interesting how a coffee shops are starting to hide their machines beneath the counter and just the group head is above (much like a beer tap). They don't get to show off their super expensive machine, but it does open up the counter for more human interactions (the barista isn't hidden behind a giant machine. I personally think it's a big improvement.
  - twawaaay 4y ago
    I think most people who come for coffe don't care about espresso machines. My wife was shocked when I told her how much a good grinder and espresso machine costs. Forget about knowing particular brands and product lines. And people who care tend to care in an unhealthy way. I would put them in same category as people focusing what kind of photographic equipment you use to make a photo. From purely practical point of view the espresso machine is one of the least significant ingredients. An espresso machine is essentially a heater and a pump that is supposed to push water through coffee puck at a given pressure. Some bells and whistles can help make a touch better coffee more consistently. A good grinder and well dialled is on the other hand essential and any misstep here will basically preclude you from getting good coffee. And if you don't get quality, freshly roasted coffee no of the above will save you.
- nikau 4y ago
  Its often more nuanced than that, for example often cafes will get free machines and service if they agree to only use a particular brand of beans. Great for the cafe owner, but typically its mediocre beans like vittoria or similar which are stale by the time they get to the cafe and a barista can only do so much with them. So that then dictates the quality of baristas you get, any baristas with pride in their work will try and find cafes with better quality ingredients, so you are left with mediocre baristas than can just pump out okish coffee.
amanj41 4y ago
This is a theory I hold about cocktails as well. At the end of the day, most cocktails are very simple and it boils down to a matter of ingredient ratios. The fact most bars make crappy cocktails likely is due to the lack of such a feedback loop as you say. Anecdotally, almost every bar I have been to where the bartenders sample the drink have top notch cocktails.
richeyryan 4y ago
The article touches on this but often, just having the appearance of somewhere that is serious about coffee or cocktails is enough. The owners probably don't care, so long as they do enough business to keep things going. People will go somewhere that looks like an excellent cocktail bar, order something called an Aperol Spritz, receive something that is mostly soda water, a bit of prosecco and a tiny dash of Aperol and be pleased because doesn't it look great? And if that represents value for money to them, then that's fine. The whole idea of speciality anything eventually has to overcome the fact it will be commoditised, and there will be an abundance of low to middling quality offerings that are using the signifiers of high-quality offerings to make money.
jkmcf 4y ago
Tea drinkers enter the chat... With all the focus on coffee, it's nigh impossible to find decent tea or someone that understands you can't double the water for a grande using the same amount of tea.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rstuart4133 4y ago
> As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and knowledge to actually check the coffee, diagnose the problem and then fix it. This resonates with me. I have a home machine. Sometimes it produces coffee perfection, most times not. There aren't really a lot of variables: the bean and its age, the grind size and the grind time. So it sounds simple. But the bean and it's age change continuously, which means you have to change the grind size and time to compensate. Probably daily. The grind size and time effect each in a highly non-linear way. I do it more by trial and error, which takes time and a lot of wasted shots. It is a lot of effort - so I don't do it as often as I should. Which is how we get to "Sometimes it produces coffee perfection, most times not". Was the barista course useful?
- twawaaay 4y ago
  > Was the barista course useful? It very much was. I already knew a lot about making espresso but the course taught me a lot of small tips and tricks. It also gave me better understanding of end to end process and what is and what is probably not as important. In the past I would be spending a lot of time on gimmicks (like a grinder that could grind to exact weight) which I learned are completely unnecessary for the most part. The course was meant for people who will be working as baristas and so it was not oriented on getting best coffee but rather teaching you the process and how to make various drinks. The other students were not super interested in coffee but the teachers were. > It is a lot of effort - so I don't do it as often as I should. I pull about 2-3 double shots for myself every day and probably, on average, one another for my wife and daughter. I got in a habit of observing every single shot I make. I weigh the grounds that came out of the grinder, the espresso, the time it took to pull it as well as the profile (I look at the weight vs time profile in my head). I also look at the bottom of the naked portafilter during first couple seconds to see how well I have distributed it so that I don't start correcting in response to incorrect distribution. I have been doing it for long enough that I don't have to think about it anymore. Over time you also learn to intuitively know what kind of correction you need to introduce and how large magnitude to fix the problem. The result of this is that I get a very good shot probably 50-70% of the time. Which I am happy with, it is very difficult to get consistent results at home when you just pull couple of shots every day.

cush 4y ago

Shops are opening left and right with specialty beans, great atmosphere, pastries, and the $30k La Marzocco espresso machine, yet the baristas have no training, can't steam milk, and pull shots that taste like battery acid. The reason the coffee costs $6 a cup is to pay the pilot

criddell 4y ago
> the $30k La Marzocco espresso machine I think it's interesting how a coffee shops are starting to hide their machines beneath the counter and just the group head is above (much like a beer tap). They don't get to show off their super expensive machine, but it does open up the counter for more human interactions (the barista isn't hidden behind a giant machine. I personally think it's a big improvement.
- twawaaay 4y ago
  I think most people who come for coffe don't care about espresso machines. My wife was shocked when I told her how much a good grinder and espresso machine costs. Forget about knowing particular brands and product lines. And people who care tend to care in an unhealthy way. I would put them in same category as people focusing what kind of photographic equipment you use to make a photo. From purely practical point of view the espresso machine is one of the least significant ingredients. An espresso machine is essentially a heater and a pump that is supposed to push water through coffee puck at a given pressure. Some bells and whistles can help make a touch better coffee more consistently. A good grinder and well dialled is on the other hand essential and any misstep here will basically preclude you from getting good coffee. And if you don't get quality, freshly roasted coffee no of the above will save you.
nikau 4y ago
Its often more nuanced than that, for example often cafes will get free machines and service if they agree to only use a particular brand of beans. Great for the cafe owner, but typically its mediocre beans like vittoria or similar which are stale by the time they get to the cafe and a barista can only do so much with them. So that then dictates the quality of baristas you get, any baristas with pride in their work will try and find cafes with better quality ingredients, so you are left with mediocre baristas than can just pump out okish coffee.

amanj41 4y ago

This is a theory I hold about cocktails as well. At the end of the day, most cocktails are very simple and it boils down to a matter of ingredient ratios. The fact most bars make crappy cocktails likely is due to the lack of such a feedback loop as you say. Anecdotally, almost every bar I have been to where the bartenders sample the drink have top notch cocktails.

richeyryan 4y ago

The article touches on this but often, just having the appearance of somewhere that is serious about coffee or cocktails is enough. The owners probably don't care, so long as they do enough business to keep things going. People will go somewhere that looks like an excellent cocktail bar, order something called an Aperol Spritz, receive something that is mostly soda water, a bit of prosecco and a tiny dash of Aperol and be pleased because doesn't it look great? And if that represents value for money to them, then that's fine. The whole idea of speciality anything eventually has to overcome the fact it will be commoditised, and there will be an abundance of low to middling quality offerings that are using the signifiers of high-quality offerings to make money.

jkmcf 4y ago

Tea drinkers enter the chat... With all the focus on coffee, it's nigh impossible to find decent tea or someone that understands you can't double the water for a grande using the same amount of tea.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

rstuart4133 4y ago

> As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and knowledge to actually check the coffee, diagnose the problem and then fix it. This resonates with me. I have a home machine. Sometimes it produces coffee perfection, most times not. There aren't really a lot of variables: the bean and its age, the grind size and the grind time. So it sounds simple. But the bean and it's age change continuously, which means you have to change the grind size and time to compensate. Probably daily. The grind size and time effect each in a highly non-linear way. I do it more by trial and error, which takes time and a lot of wasted shots. It is a lot of effort - so I don't do it as often as I should. Which is how we get to "Sometimes it produces coffee perfection, most times not". Was the barista course useful?

twawaaay 4y ago
> Was the barista course useful? It very much was. I already knew a lot about making espresso but the course taught me a lot of small tips and tricks. It also gave me better understanding of end to end process and what is and what is probably not as important. In the past I would be spending a lot of time on gimmicks (like a grinder that could grind to exact weight) which I learned are completely unnecessary for the most part. The course was meant for people who will be working as baristas and so it was not oriented on getting best coffee but rather teaching you the process and how to make various drinks. The other students were not super interested in coffee but the teachers were. > It is a lot of effort - so I don't do it as often as I should. I pull about 2-3 double shots for myself every day and probably, on average, one another for my wife and daughter. I got in a habit of observing every single shot I make. I weigh the grounds that came out of the grinder, the espresso, the time it took to pull it as well as the profile (I look at the weight vs time profile in my head). I also look at the bottom of the naked portafilter during first couple seconds to see how well I have distributed it so that I don't start correcting in response to incorrect distribution. I have been doing it for long enough that I don't have to think about it anymore. Over time you also learn to intuitively know what kind of correction you need to introduce and how large magnitude to fix the problem. The result of this is that I get a very good shot probably 50-70% of the time. Which I am happy with, it is very difficult to get consistent results at home when you just pull couple of shots every day.