4 ms·

“I feel like I can move in the world and do normal things without fear. I wonder if that’s what a man feels, as he’s lacing up for a run?” Yeah, pretty much. I

“I feel like I can move in the world and do normal things without fear. I wonder if that’s what a man feels, as he’s lacing up for a run?” Yeah, pretty much. I'm never as aware of my own privilege as when I'm running alone, in strange places at odd hours with poor light. Even under ideal conditions, there's a definite pattern of male solo runners and women in pairs. This experience has probably opened my eyes more than any other wrt how women experience the world differently.

stillkicking 4y ago
- igetspam 4y ago
  Men are victims of men. Women are victims of men. On a rare occasion, women are the ones doing the violence but they are the exception. See if you can spot the pattern.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    Are you implying that since most violence is committed by men, that a man who is victimized by another man is more deserving of it than a woman who is victimized by a man? Because otherwise I don't see how the gender of the aggressor is relevant.
    - igetspam 4y ago
      Not at all, just that the "men are victims of violence too" whiney bullshit is not a useful conversation when talking about violence toward women by men. It's stupid and it takes away from the conversation and the only correlation between the two is the gender of the perpetrator. Women are targets because they're women. Men aren't targeted because of a shared immutable trait. They may have other things about them that someone doesn't like and some of those things may be immutable but the "men hurt men too" line is stupid, takes away from the important conversation we're not having enough and is basically a whataboutism. The people complaining about violence against men only seem to show up in force when talking about violence against women.
      - notacoward 4y ago
        It's "all lives matter" all over again. Yes, all lives do matter, and yes, men are victims of violence too, but neither of those facts was ever in dispute. The pattern of when and how they're brought up, as counterpoints to facts about violence that did need to be reiterated, suggests derailment rather than sincere interest.
      - fluoridation 4y ago
        >Not at all, just that the "men are victims of violence too" whiney bullshit is not a useful conversation when talking about violence toward women by men. Is it? I don't know. Surely it depends on the particular conversation. If the topic of the conversation is "since women are victims of violence from men, men who are accused of committing violence against women should be guilty until proven innocent", then I don't think it's irrelevant that men also suffer violence.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Kind of baked into the concept of priviliege is the idea that different individuals get different benefits in different situations. It's always strange to read attacks on "privilege" as a concept that are in themselves arguments for the concept. But I guess that's also a great example of the reason it's a useful concept. Even your comment that women are more neurotic is a great example of something you believe is out of people's control, but rather than being glad you don't have that specific problem you are attacking people who do as if it was a personal failing they chose to exhibit and you're less neurotic because you just bravely chose not to be a woman, unlike those lazy slackers who didn't bother to make that simple change.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    If it's not advantageous or neutral in all situations, it seems wrong to refer to it as "male privilege", i.e. the privilege of being male. Privileges are also something that is granted and which can be revoked, often as punishment and precisely because having it is desired, because it's advantageous. I think more apt phrases would be "male condition" and "female condition", as subsets of the human condition.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      No, "privilege" in this context is a specific concept, not just any and all meanings of the word: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege
      - fluoridation 4y ago
        I'm aware of the concept. I'm saying the word chosen for the concept is bad, and I suspect it was chosen for rhetorical reasons, rather than by accident.
        ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        It is being used to describe a good thing that you receive, but don't earn, so "privilege" is an appropriate choice.
scotty79 4y ago
I think that depends. When I walk around the city as a man and I'm about to cross paths with larger man or more than one man I'm judging if I might get harrased, think what I'll do if I am and sometimes if I judge risk to be high and I have time to act, I go in another direction to avoid getting close.
- igetspam 4y ago
  Because you're a man or because you're human and doing a threat assessment? It's not the same thing. Women are targeted for being women. You are not single out because you're a man.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    I suspect that if I was >6ft man built like a brick my threat assesment migh be less anxious. Women, I think, are often not specifically targeted for being women but rather for being small and weak. Like I could be. I don't argue that women have it worse. I just think it's quantitative difference not qualitative. Women might be more prone to be victims of sexual violence because there's more straight men than gay men but the rest of their risks comes from sexual dimorphism that makes them smaller, weaker and slower on average. Also men are on average more accepting towards violence aginst men so this increses danger for potential male victims.

stillkicking 4y ago

igetspam 4y ago
Men are victims of men. Women are victims of men. On a rare occasion, women are the ones doing the violence but they are the exception. See if you can spot the pattern.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  Are you implying that since most violence is committed by men, that a man who is victimized by another man is more deserving of it than a woman who is victimized by a man? Because otherwise I don't see how the gender of the aggressor is relevant.
  - igetspam 4y ago
    Not at all, just that the "men are victims of violence too" whiney bullshit is not a useful conversation when talking about violence toward women by men. It's stupid and it takes away from the conversation and the only correlation between the two is the gender of the perpetrator. Women are targets because they're women. Men aren't targeted because of a shared immutable trait. They may have other things about them that someone doesn't like and some of those things may be immutable but the "men hurt men too" line is stupid, takes away from the important conversation we're not having enough and is basically a whataboutism. The people complaining about violence against men only seem to show up in force when talking about violence against women.
    - notacoward 4y ago
      It's "all lives matter" all over again. Yes, all lives do matter, and yes, men are victims of violence too, but neither of those facts was ever in dispute. The pattern of when and how they're brought up, as counterpoints to facts about violence that did need to be reiterated, suggests derailment rather than sincere interest.
    - fluoridation 4y ago
      >Not at all, just that the "men are victims of violence too" whiney bullshit is not a useful conversation when talking about violence toward women by men. Is it? I don't know. Surely it depends on the particular conversation. If the topic of the conversation is "since women are victims of violence from men, men who are accused of committing violence against women should be guilty until proven innocent", then I don't think it's irrelevant that men also suffer violence.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Kind of baked into the concept of priviliege is the idea that different individuals get different benefits in different situations. It's always strange to read attacks on "privilege" as a concept that are in themselves arguments for the concept. But I guess that's also a great example of the reason it's a useful concept. Even your comment that women are more neurotic is a great example of something you believe is out of people's control, but rather than being glad you don't have that specific problem you are attacking people who do as if it was a personal failing they chose to exhibit and you're less neurotic because you just bravely chose not to be a woman, unlike those lazy slackers who didn't bother to make that simple change.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  If it's not advantageous or neutral in all situations, it seems wrong to refer to it as "male privilege", i.e. the privilege of being male. Privileges are also something that is granted and which can be revoked, often as punishment and precisely because having it is desired, because it's advantageous. I think more apt phrases would be "male condition" and "female condition", as subsets of the human condition.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    No, "privilege" in this context is a specific concept, not just any and all meanings of the word: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_privilege
    - fluoridation 4y ago
      I'm aware of the concept. I'm saying the word chosen for the concept is bad, and I suspect it was chosen for rhetorical reasons, rather than by accident.
      - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        It is being used to describe a good thing that you receive, but don't earn, so "privilege" is an appropriate choice.

scotty79 4y ago

I think that depends. When I walk around the city as a man and I'm about to cross paths with larger man or more than one man I'm judging if I might get harrased, think what I'll do if I am and sometimes if I judge risk to be high and I have time to act, I go in another direction to avoid getting close.

igetspam 4y ago
Because you're a man or because you're human and doing a threat assessment? It's not the same thing. Women are targeted for being women. You are not single out because you're a man.
- scotty79 4y ago
  I suspect that if I was >6ft man built like a brick my threat assesment migh be less anxious. Women, I think, are often not specifically targeted for being women but rather for being small and weak. Like I could be. I don't argue that women have it worse. I just think it's quantitative difference not qualitative. Women might be more prone to be victims of sexual violence because there's more straight men than gay men but the rest of their risks comes from sexual dimorphism that makes them smaller, weaker and slower on average. Also men are on average more accepting towards violence aginst men so this increses danger for potential male victims.