5 ms·

First of all, I am in no way blaming women if a man does something bad to them. What’s interesting to me is that gender dynamics create a sort of predator/prey

First of all, I am in no way blaming women if a man does something bad to them. What’s interesting to me is that gender dynamics create a sort of predator/prey dynamic. Specifically I’m talking about how men are generally required to do all of the initiating. I think it trains men to push for what they want because that’s the only way romantic and sexual interactions happen. Sometimes, it’s even expected that the man not ask for consent. I’m talking about men “going for” a kiss at the end of the first date. It’s generally expected that the man go for it without asking. It’s like sexual assault is baked into the dating ritual! I can’t help but wonder if we’d be better off if we got rid of this dynamic. Like if we expected men and women to both initiate instead of women being taught to wait for men to pursue them.

ravenstine 4y ago
I'm not sure the word "trained" is that appropriate. The last handful of generations of men have been failed by their male elders in terms of learning how to successfully interact with women, or so much as how to do basic home repair. To say that men adapt to push for what they want makes more sense because either they figure it out or they don't. The need to take initiative with women is not a figment. > I can’t help but wonder if we’d be better off if we got rid of this dynamic. The vast majority men don't push, at least not in a way that is predatory. To further disarm men over the small minority of predatory (and possibly more reproductively successful) men would not be helpful even to women. > Like if we expected men and women to both initiate instead of women being taught to wait for men to pursue them. Good luck with that. This completely dismisses women as actual physical beings with their own behaviors and interests as opposed to a figment. Why exactly would women not wait for men to pursue them? Women only have so many opportunities to bear children, whereas men can theoretically impregnate 100s of women for the 9 months that a single woman is pregnant. What incentive does a woman have to give away her eggs to men who don't go out of their way to show they are willing to commit? What incentive do women have when the sexual encounters are far more available to them than the other way around on average? If a man doesn't have the courage to go up against all odds, including her initial rejection of him, then how likely will he succeed at defending her while she's pregnant and vulnerable? Not only is there no incentive for women to pursue men, but they've not had this incentive for millions of years. Some part of that dynamic is baked, as is the male propensity for violence.
- serverholic 4y ago
  I somewhat agree with you. My main point is that we should be honest about the game we are playing and the side effects of the game in terms of psychological and social effects. If men are playing a numbers game, and are expected to pursue women “against all odds” then you really can’t blame men for trying to play and win the game. You can’t entirely blame men for going for a kiss even if he’s received mixed signals because the reality is that some women suck at giving signals. You can’t entirely blame men for doing weird, awkward shit because he’s trying a new strategy to win the game.
DoctorOW 4y ago
I think this is something that's getting better with time. Relationships among younger people is often way more focused on consent and women being able to speak their mind. By no means are you wrong but I do think it's on good track.
- serverholic 4y ago
  I think that’s mostly just talk and the reality is that these rituals are largely still in place. The vast majority of women still think men should do all the initiating.
pc86 4y ago
I don't know about you, but I've never had to "push for what I want" for interaction. It's pretty clear on both fronts when someone is interested and when they're not, and pretending that it's unclear gives people an excuse to be more aggressive than is acceptable. Obviously everyone is different, but I think that's part of why asking for a first kiss is seen as unattractive. If you're so dense as to not be able to tell when someone wants a kiss (which, the first time, is excruciatingly clear most of the time), what other less clear or more important signals are you going to miss, or choose to miss?
- serverholic 4y ago
  Not everybody gives clear signals and not everybody is good at interpreting signals. And no, a kiss at the end of the night is not just a signal readability test. It’s a masculinity test. If a guy doesn’t kiss a girl at the end of the night her impression is that he’s weak.
  - pc86 4y ago
    > Not everybody gives clear signals and not everybody is good at interpreting signals. This is literally what I said. Being good at interpreting signals is attractive. Giving clear signals is attractive. > If a guy doesn’t kiss a girl at the end of the night her impression is that he’s weak. Sorry but this is some redpill bullshit.
    - serverholic 4y ago
      No it’s not literally what you said. You completely missed the female side of the equation where some people are shit at giving signals. That changes the equation significantly because it incentivizes men to ignore signals to a certain extent. They’re more likely to just shoot their shot and see what happens. You might not like it but that’s the reality. Regarding weakness, I don’t care what word you use but women tend to think less of men when they don’t go for it and leave it to the woman to initiate. This is the lived experience of many, many men. What I think is interesting is that you’ve done two of the most common things I’ve seen woke people do. Deny female agency and deny reality. Everything is men’s fault and their lived experience doesn’t matter.

ravenstine 4y ago

I'm not sure the word "trained" is that appropriate. The last handful of generations of men have been failed by their male elders in terms of learning how to successfully interact with women, or so much as how to do basic home repair. To say that men adapt to push for what they want makes more sense because either they figure it out or they don't. The need to take initiative with women is not a figment. > I can’t help but wonder if we’d be better off if we got rid of this dynamic. The vast majority men don't push, at least not in a way that is predatory. To further disarm men over the small minority of predatory (and possibly more reproductively successful) men would not be helpful even to women. > Like if we expected men and women to both initiate instead of women being taught to wait for men to pursue them. Good luck with that. This completely dismisses women as actual physical beings with their own behaviors and interests as opposed to a figment. Why exactly would women not wait for men to pursue them? Women only have so many opportunities to bear children, whereas men can theoretically impregnate 100s of women for the 9 months that a single woman is pregnant. What incentive does a woman have to give away her eggs to men who don't go out of their way to show they are willing to commit? What incentive do women have when the sexual encounters are far more available to them than the other way around on average? If a man doesn't have the courage to go up against all odds, including her initial rejection of him, then how likely will he succeed at defending her while she's pregnant and vulnerable? Not only is there no incentive for women to pursue men, but they've not had this incentive for millions of years. Some part of that dynamic is baked, as is the male propensity for violence.

serverholic 4y ago
I somewhat agree with you. My main point is that we should be honest about the game we are playing and the side effects of the game in terms of psychological and social effects. If men are playing a numbers game, and are expected to pursue women “against all odds” then you really can’t blame men for trying to play and win the game. You can’t entirely blame men for going for a kiss even if he’s received mixed signals because the reality is that some women suck at giving signals. You can’t entirely blame men for doing weird, awkward shit because he’s trying a new strategy to win the game.

DoctorOW 4y ago

I think this is something that's getting better with time. Relationships among younger people is often way more focused on consent and women being able to speak their mind. By no means are you wrong but I do think it's on good track.

serverholic 4y ago
I think that’s mostly just talk and the reality is that these rituals are largely still in place. The vast majority of women still think men should do all the initiating.

pc86 4y ago

I don't know about you, but I've never had to "push for what I want" for interaction. It's pretty clear on both fronts when someone is interested and when they're not, and pretending that it's unclear gives people an excuse to be more aggressive than is acceptable. Obviously everyone is different, but I think that's part of why asking for a first kiss is seen as unattractive. If you're so dense as to not be able to tell when someone wants a kiss (which, the first time, is excruciatingly clear most of the time), what other less clear or more important signals are you going to miss, or choose to miss?

serverholic 4y ago
Not everybody gives clear signals and not everybody is good at interpreting signals. And no, a kiss at the end of the night is not just a signal readability test. It’s a masculinity test. If a guy doesn’t kiss a girl at the end of the night her impression is that he’s weak.
- pc86 4y ago
  > Not everybody gives clear signals and not everybody is good at interpreting signals. This is literally what I said. Being good at interpreting signals is attractive. Giving clear signals is attractive. > If a guy doesn’t kiss a girl at the end of the night her impression is that he’s weak. Sorry but this is some redpill bullshit.
  - serverholic 4y ago
    No it’s not literally what you said. You completely missed the female side of the equation where some people are shit at giving signals. That changes the equation significantly because it incentivizes men to ignore signals to a certain extent. They’re more likely to just shoot their shot and see what happens. You might not like it but that’s the reality. Regarding weakness, I don’t care what word you use but women tend to think less of men when they don’t go for it and leave it to the woman to initiate. This is the lived experience of many, many men. What I think is interesting is that you’ve done two of the most common things I’ve seen woke people do. Deny female agency and deny reality. Everything is men’s fault and their lived experience doesn’t matter.