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> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. I think it does actually no one except

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. I think it does actually no one except them can read them. If someone else can, then by definition it's not end-to-end encryption. From https://www.definitions.net/definition/End-To-End%20Encryption https://www.definitions.net/definition/End-To-End%20Encrypti... > End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can read the messages.

xuki 4y ago
Whatsapp can't read the message on their servers but they can read it at clients, otherwise they cannot display the messages for users. Likewise, Apple/Google can read them too because they have to in order to render the texts.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  This is just redefining terms, then. We know the app decrypts it to display it. But if the app decrypts it to send it to the parent company, then it is by definition not end to end encrypted anymore. If the app decrypts it, analyzes it and sends information about the message to the parent company, then the same thing is happening. The parent company is reading the message, INSTEAD of E2E encrypting it. It doesn't matter whether that reading happens on device or on the company's servers. E2E means the company is not reading it.
  - propogandist 4y ago
    there was a time when “Unlimited” meant without any limits, but US cell carriers have redefined the term to support their business model. It’s possible that this data harvesting ad company has redefined what E2E means (to them) to advance their business interests.
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    >then it is by definition not end to end encrypted anymore. HTTPS is E2E between the client and the server.
viraptor 4y ago
The conversations being e2ee do not affect the app itself from acting on contents. By definition the app needs to know the contents to display it, but it can also update your ad profile. It doesn't even need to send the whole message to meta, just the keywords triggered, or a preprocessed vector defining your interests. E2ee means only the messages themselves can't be intercepted and read. But if anyone can actually prove fb acting on message contents, I suspect the EU banhammer would be interested.
- rhn_mk1 4y ago
  The application processing the message for the purpose of displaying it is clear. But if the message is copied, read, analyzed and sent further on behalf of a third party before encryption, then that puts that third party in the middle between the sender and the recipient. A man in the middle directly undermines e2ee: "no one else reads your message". It doesn't matter if the third party made the messaging app or not. What matters is whether information in your messages is accessible to anyone besides you and the recipient.
  - ale42 4y ago
    E2EE doesn't prevent the app itself from analyzing messages locally, and sending updated interest profiles to meta... which can be a vector of weights or whatever thing they might be using to know what ads to show. If the logic is in the app, the message doesn't leave the app and E2EE is preserved. This said, analyzing messages for the purpose of ad display is creepy, whatever the way it is done.
    - rhn_mk1 4y ago
      E2EE most certainly does exclude analyzing messages anywhere for a third party. Notice that "ends" in "end-to-end" are users, not applications. When an application forwards things to an entity, then that entity becomes an "end" of the conversation. When it displays a message to the user, the way the user wants, then the user is the end. When it processes the message and delivers results to Facebook, the way Facebook wants it, then the application makes Facebook the "third end". In such scenario, Facebook had intercepted the message, just chose to forward only some extracted information (which may or may not be enough to reconstruct the original). This does not match the definition of "end-to-end encryption".

xuki 4y ago

Whatsapp can't read the message on their servers but they can read it at clients, otherwise they cannot display the messages for users. Likewise, Apple/Google can read them too because they have to in order to render the texts.

jtbayly 4y ago
This is just redefining terms, then. We know the app decrypts it to display it. But if the app decrypts it to send it to the parent company, then it is by definition not end to end encrypted anymore. If the app decrypts it, analyzes it and sends information about the message to the parent company, then the same thing is happening. The parent company is reading the message, INSTEAD of E2E encrypting it. It doesn't matter whether that reading happens on device or on the company's servers. E2E means the company is not reading it.
- propogandist 4y ago
  there was a time when “Unlimited” meant without any limits, but US cell carriers have redefined the term to support their business model. It’s possible that this data harvesting ad company has redefined what E2E means (to them) to advance their business interests.
- charcircuit 4y ago
  >then it is by definition not end to end encrypted anymore. HTTPS is E2E between the client and the server.

viraptor 4y ago

The conversations being e2ee do not affect the app itself from acting on contents. By definition the app needs to know the contents to display it, but it can also update your ad profile. It doesn't even need to send the whole message to meta, just the keywords triggered, or a preprocessed vector defining your interests. E2ee means only the messages themselves can't be intercepted and read. But if anyone can actually prove fb acting on message contents, I suspect the EU banhammer would be interested.

rhn_mk1 4y ago
The application processing the message for the purpose of displaying it is clear. But if the message is copied, read, analyzed and sent further on behalf of a third party before encryption, then that puts that third party in the middle between the sender and the recipient. A man in the middle directly undermines e2ee: "no one else reads your message". It doesn't matter if the third party made the messaging app or not. What matters is whether information in your messages is accessible to anyone besides you and the recipient.
- ale42 4y ago
  E2EE doesn't prevent the app itself from analyzing messages locally, and sending updated interest profiles to meta... which can be a vector of weights or whatever thing they might be using to know what ads to show. If the logic is in the app, the message doesn't leave the app and E2EE is preserved. This said, analyzing messages for the purpose of ad display is creepy, whatever the way it is done.
  - rhn_mk1 4y ago
    E2EE most certainly does exclude analyzing messages anywhere for a third party. Notice that "ends" in "end-to-end" are users, not applications. When an application forwards things to an entity, then that entity becomes an "end" of the conversation. When it displays a message to the user, the way the user wants, then the user is the end. When it processes the message and delivers results to Facebook, the way Facebook wants it, then the application makes Facebook the "third end". In such scenario, Facebook had intercepted the message, just chose to forward only some extracted information (which may or may not be enough to reconstruct the original). This does not match the definition of "end-to-end encryption".