4 ms·

> the blindingly obvious element of racism involved in lynching Except the context is the high number of white lynching's that also occurred.

by Chris2048 4y ago

foldr 4y ago
If someone wants to argue against the scholarly consensus regarding the role of racism in lynchings in America, I'm happy for them to do so if they do it properly. That is, if they take on the best existing scholarship on the subject and give references to support their arguments. The OP's comment simply asserts that the existing consensus is wrong. I see no reason to take such an assertion seriously, or even to debate it. In the absence of any real effort to engage with the historical facts and scholarship it's mere apologism.
- refurb 4y ago
  What consensus? Im not even sure what your arguing is true or not true.
  - foldr 4y ago
    Say, the points made in the first few paragraphs of the relevant Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States Nothing controversial, just the normally accepted historical reality.
    - refurb 4y ago
      OK, that doesn't seem to run counter to the grandparents comments?
      - foldr 4y ago
        I’m talking about this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32948728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32948728
        refurb 4y ago
        Those two seem unrelated? You can have lynching of blacks as a method of control while also having lynching being extrajudicial punishment for whites?
        foldr 4y ago
        I'm not sure how serious you're being at this point, but I'll try one more time. The original post clearly puts forward the hypothesis that lynching of black Americans was not driven by racism, and that lynching of 'whites' [*] and blacks occurred for the same underlying non-racially-related reason. The Wikipedia article states the generally accepted historical facts, which are incompatible with this hypothesis. Take e.g. the lynching of Emmett Till, and many other less famous instances along the same lines. It would be absurd to suggest that these events occurred due to a lack of adequate policing (unless you think that an adequate policing system is one that puts Black 14 year olds in jail for allegedly whistling at white women). That is why no-one who seriously studies the history of lynching makes this claim. [*] As mentioned elsewhere in thread, it's not so simple to say who was or wasn't 'white' at various periods in America's history, and we shouldn't assume that lynchings of non-Black Americans were necessarily not motivated by racism or other neighboring prejudices.
- Chris2048 4y ago
  Including white lyching? "scholarly consensus" is that it was racism?
  - foldr 4y ago
    >Including white lychings? "scholarly consensus" is that it was racism? Actually yes, in many cases. 'White' in these stats often includes Jews, Italians and other groups who also suffered from discrimination based on their ethnicity. The category 'white' has not remained constant over the past 200 years. You can certainly find scholarly treatments of this point if you look on Google scholar.
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      > You can certainly find scholarly treatments of this point if you look on Google scholar. Have you done so to sources your own statements?
      - foldr 4y ago
        https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-history/article/lynching-of-italians-and-the-rise-of-antilynching-politics-in-the-united-states/5FCDECA4F388248230435DACAB90E207 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-histo...
        Chris2048 4y ago
        Found the same thing googling myself. Posting a link rather than quoting the relevant parts make me think that's all you did, once I called you on it. Should you be held to the same high standard?: > take on the best existing scholarship on the subject and give references to support their arguments You essentially put the burden on me to figure out how this document supports your argument - that the majority of white lynching (in some unspecified time period) where racially motivated. I've also found quite a few that argue white lynching were motivated by support for progressive racial causes, but yet to find concrete statistics/evidence supporting that conclusion either.

> the blindingly obvious element of racism involved in lynching Except the context is the high number of white lynching's that also occurred.

foldr 4y ago

If someone wants to argue against the scholarly consensus regarding the role of racism in lynchings in America, I'm happy for them to do so if they do it properly. That is, if they take on the best existing scholarship on the subject and give references to support their arguments. The OP's comment simply asserts that the existing consensus is wrong. I see no reason to take such an assertion seriously, or even to debate it. In the absence of any real effort to engage with the historical facts and scholarship it's mere apologism.

refurb 4y ago
What consensus? Im not even sure what your arguing is true or not true.
- foldr 4y ago
  Say, the points made in the first few paragraphs of the relevant Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States Nothing controversial, just the normally accepted historical reality.
  - refurb 4y ago
    OK, that doesn't seem to run counter to the grandparents comments?
    - foldr 4y ago
      I’m talking about this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32948728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32948728
      - refurb 4y ago
        Those two seem unrelated? You can have lynching of blacks as a method of control while also having lynching being extrajudicial punishment for whites?
        foldr 4y ago
        I'm not sure how serious you're being at this point, but I'll try one more time. The original post clearly puts forward the hypothesis that lynching of black Americans was not driven by racism, and that lynching of 'whites' [*] and blacks occurred for the same underlying non-racially-related reason. The Wikipedia article states the generally accepted historical facts, which are incompatible with this hypothesis. Take e.g. the lynching of Emmett Till, and many other less famous instances along the same lines. It would be absurd to suggest that these events occurred due to a lack of adequate policing (unless you think that an adequate policing system is one that puts Black 14 year olds in jail for allegedly whistling at white women). That is why no-one who seriously studies the history of lynching makes this claim. [*] As mentioned elsewhere in thread, it's not so simple to say who was or wasn't 'white' at various periods in America's history, and we shouldn't assume that lynchings of non-Black Americans were necessarily not motivated by racism or other neighboring prejudices.
Chris2048 4y ago
Including white lyching? "scholarly consensus" is that it was racism?
- foldr 4y ago
  >Including white lychings? "scholarly consensus" is that it was racism? Actually yes, in many cases. 'White' in these stats often includes Jews, Italians and other groups who also suffered from discrimination based on their ethnicity. The category 'white' has not remained constant over the past 200 years. You can certainly find scholarly treatments of this point if you look on Google scholar.
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    > You can certainly find scholarly treatments of this point if you look on Google scholar. Have you done so to sources your own statements?
    - foldr 4y ago
      https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-history/article/lynching-of-italians-and-the-rise-of-antilynching-politics-in-the-united-states/5FCDECA4F388248230435DACAB90E207 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/social-science-histo...
      - Chris2048 4y ago
        Found the same thing googling myself. Posting a link rather than quoting the relevant parts make me think that's all you did, once I called you on it. Should you be held to the same high standard?: > take on the best existing scholarship on the subject and give references to support their arguments You essentially put the burden on me to figure out how this document supports your argument - that the majority of white lynching (in some unspecified time period) where racially motivated. I've also found quite a few that argue white lynching were motivated by support for progressive racial causes, but yet to find concrete statistics/evidence supporting that conclusion either.