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What even is the definition of 'adventure game' used here? Dozens of adventure games were released in the 10 years prior to 2004. One of the most wellknown seri

What even is the definition of 'adventure game' used here? Dozens of adventure games were released in the 10 years prior to 2004. One of the most wellknown series, Legend of Zelda, never stopped producing. Is LoZ not considered an adventure series by these critics?

cammikebrown 4y ago
Adventure games have always been a somewhat specific genre. Whether through text , 2D, or 3D, they're generally puzzle-driven, choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game
- anthk 4y ago
  >choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings. Not in this context.
vanderZwan 4y ago
I think Legend of Zelda series is considered an "action-adventure game", not an "adventure game". The former tends to occupy the "gameplay space" of an action RPG with little to no stats or loot/inventory juggling, optionally with platforming (if 3D). It's a bit tricky because the definition of "action-adventure" broadened as LoZ added more gameplay elements, and more games became "LoZ adjacent" (although it's not as muddled as the definition of "rogue-like", which got all messed up because of Spelunky being a surprise hit). Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs).
- lucideer 4y ago
  > Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though LoZ is highly puzzle-oriented. Not so narrative driven though so if both are required, that fits... but: > and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs). What are RPG elements in this context if not narrative?
  - ehnto 4y ago
    Most RPG's really boil down to point accumulation and skill trees that don't affect the plot at all. Which is a shame, because roles and skills could play a huge role in narrative if developers are able to put in the time. Some games do, the Fallout series often gives you different paths through the story depending on the abilities you've acquired.
    - vanderZwan 4y ago
      You hit the nail on the head and I should have been more clear about that, thanks.
    - lucideer 4y ago
      Ah this is all a good point, yeah. I guess I was more thinking of the presence of/emphasis on a narrative (quantity of dialogue, cut-scenes, character personalities, etc.) rather than the direct bearing that narrative has on gameplay (you're right that it's often relatively little). I hadn't really thought of Fallout as an RPG, nor e.g. Deus Ex, I guess the FP nature makes them seem more different. Witcher is more of one, but I guess they all 3 have commonalities.
- chongli 4y ago
  Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs). The games of the Quest for Glory series [1] are most definitely adventure games, not RPGs, despite having some RPG elements. They also happen to be my favourite adventure games due to the way most puzzles have multiple solutions (intended for the different character classes but not strictly required by them). The series is also one of the very few where you have the ability to export your character at the end of each game and import him into the next, allowing you to play all 5 games with the same character. This is made particularly interesting by the wildly different settings of each game as well as the evolving technology of the series. Not everyone likes all of the games, however. My personal favourite is the 4th game, Shadows of Darkness, which is fully voice acted and narrated by John Rhys-Davies. I think they’re all worth playing through, however, especially by taking the same character all the way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory
  - svachalek 4y ago
    You're both right, "strong RPG elements" and "some RPG elements" are not equivalent phrases.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  By those standards, it feels like the author blindsided themselves immensely. Not only did the genre evolve to be more, the old style was picked up by indies. RPG maker games in particular (ironically not RPGs most of the time). Simultaneously, narrative became far more important in the other genres. Bing-bing-wahoo expanded beyond a cake invitation. All of these were true prior to 2004, and other genres evolved too.
  - vanderZwan 4y ago
    Most of article was written in 1989, including the headline. Which includes the date it was written. It also was written by the design lead of The Secret of Monkey Island I and II. It was made public in 2004, and the author included this statement in the article: > Some people will tell you that Adventure Games aren't really dead, they have just morphed into other forms, or that other genres have absorbed Adventure Games. If this is true, they've done a pretty bad job of it. So I don't think it's blindsighted so much as old-man-yells-at-cloud disagreeing with you on what a Real Adventure Game is. Although in Ron Gilbert's defense, he also writes: > As I read this some 15 years later, I'm not sure I agree with everything in here anymore. I learned a lot from Monkey Island 1 and 2, plus countless kids Adventure Games at Humongous Entertainment. At some point in the near future, I will do an annotated version of this article, talking about things that have changed, or were just plains wrong. But in the meantime, there is something interesting on TV right now. So still not so much blindsighted as "never elaborated upon what he really thinks of the 1989 article these days".
  - grumbel 4y ago
    I wouldn't say the genre evolved, it pretty much peaked back in the early 90s and hasn't seen any serious improvements since. The pie-menus of Curse of Monkey Island were about the last lasting improvement I can think of. Everything else turned out a short lived gimmick, an outright failure (e.g. controls in MI4/Grim) or just a watering down (e.g. casual hidden-object games). And while narrative have become far more important in other genres, those style of narratives are completely different to what a point&click would offer. Action games are about action, you shoot or slash through things. You kill stuff. Narrative happens in cut-scenes without player control. It's not part of the gameplay. That's what makes point&click games special, as the there is no disconnect, the narrative is driven by the players the actions. And while there are certainly some RPGs that cross the line, not many do. The mainstream RPG is still obsessed with stats, collecting dozens of the same item and stuff like that. In a point&click almost everything is unique, there are no faceless copy&paste NPCs, no mountains of useless items to collect. If you find an item in a point&click, it's very likely part of the plot in some form.
msh 4y ago
He thinking things like kings quest, monkey island and so on. I would not consider zela an adventure game in this genre.
talideon 4y ago
No, the LoZ series aren't adventure games in the original sense, which encompassed text adventures (now termed "interactive fiction") and point-and-click adventures. You also have the extra hint that this is Ron Gilbert's site, and if you know anything about him, the context for "adventure game" is pretty clear. Such games are story and puzzle heavy rather than having much in the way of action.
eloisant 4y ago
He is talking about "point and click" adventure games like Monkey Island, the Sierra games, etc. Legend of Zelda clearly isn't a point and click game.
ehnto 4y ago
The term Adventure has been overloaded, but it used to be a fairly concrete concept. Something like Legend of Zelda has adventure game elements in it, but it's much more action, combat and movement, something "traditional" adventure games don't have. Text adventure games are really the best example of the concepts that an adventure game usually has, even though they can also be graphical, like Monkey Island or Full Throttle. A more recent game series like Deponia fits the bill as well. I would say that there are a lot more games with old school adventure mechanics coming out than people might realise. A lot of them get bundled into the "Walking Simulator" category, but are far more Adventure game than anything else.
elondaits 4y ago
I would call Legend of Zelda an action RPG. Although it has some puzzles, the main activity is exploring and fighting, your equipment and skills improve as you advance (allowing you to face against tougher monsters) and part of the challenge is administering consumable resources (e.g. healing items). There’s always been a big overlap between adventures and rpgs… but the article talks about issues characteristic of the purest examples of the adventure genre (most Infocom text adventures, Sierra, Lucasarts, etc)
dwighttk 4y ago
“I wrote this back in 1989 while I was designing Monkey Island. It is now the futuristic year of 2004 and we are all driving around in flying cars and wearing sliver jumps suits.”

cammikebrown 4y ago

Adventure games have always been a somewhat specific genre. Whether through text , 2D, or 3D, they're generally puzzle-driven, choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_game

anthk 4y ago
>choose-your-own-adventure style narrative outings. Not in this context.

vanderZwan 4y ago

I think Legend of Zelda series is considered an "action-adventure game", not an "adventure game". The former tends to occupy the "gameplay space" of an action RPG with little to no stats or loot/inventory juggling, optionally with platforming (if 3D). It's a bit tricky because the definition of "action-adventure" broadened as LoZ added more gameplay elements, and more games became "LoZ adjacent" (although it's not as muddled as the definition of "rogue-like", which got all messed up because of Spelunky being a surprise hit). Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs).

lucideer 4y ago
> Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though LoZ is highly puzzle-oriented. Not so narrative driven though so if both are required, that fits... but: > and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs). What are RPG elements in this context if not narrative?
- ehnto 4y ago
  Most RPG's really boil down to point accumulation and skill trees that don't affect the plot at all. Which is a shame, because roles and skills could play a huge role in narrative if developers are able to put in the time. Some games do, the Fallout series often gives you different paths through the story depending on the abilities you've acquired.
  - vanderZwan 4y ago
    You hit the nail on the head and I should have been more clear about that, thanks.
  - lucideer 4y ago
    Ah this is all a good point, yeah. I guess I was more thinking of the presence of/emphasis on a narrative (quantity of dialogue, cut-scenes, character personalities, etc.) rather than the direct bearing that narrative has on gameplay (you're right that it's often relatively little). I hadn't really thought of Fallout as an RPG, nor e.g. Deus Ex, I guess the FP nature makes them seem more different. Witcher is more of one, but I guess they all 3 have commonalities.
chongli 4y ago
Adventure games are almost always narrative driven and puzzle-oriented though, and without RPG elements (because if they had strong RPG elements they'd just be called RPGs). The games of the Quest for Glory series [1] are most definitely adventure games, not RPGs, despite having some RPG elements. They also happen to be my favourite adventure games due to the way most puzzles have multiple solutions (intended for the different character classes but not strictly required by them). The series is also one of the very few where you have the ability to export your character at the end of each game and import him into the next, allowing you to play all 5 games with the same character. This is made particularly interesting by the wildly different settings of each game as well as the evolving technology of the series. Not everyone likes all of the games, however. My personal favourite is the 4th game, Shadows of Darkness, which is fully voice acted and narrated by John Rhys-Davies. I think they’re all worth playing through, however, especially by taking the same character all the way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Glory
- svachalek 4y ago
  You're both right, "strong RPG elements" and "some RPG elements" are not equivalent phrases.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
By those standards, it feels like the author blindsided themselves immensely. Not only did the genre evolve to be more, the old style was picked up by indies. RPG maker games in particular (ironically not RPGs most of the time). Simultaneously, narrative became far more important in the other genres. Bing-bing-wahoo expanded beyond a cake invitation. All of these were true prior to 2004, and other genres evolved too.
- vanderZwan 4y ago
  Most of article was written in 1989, including the headline. Which includes the date it was written. It also was written by the design lead of The Secret of Monkey Island I and II. It was made public in 2004, and the author included this statement in the article: > Some people will tell you that Adventure Games aren't really dead, they have just morphed into other forms, or that other genres have absorbed Adventure Games. If this is true, they've done a pretty bad job of it. So I don't think it's blindsighted so much as old-man-yells-at-cloud disagreeing with you on what a Real Adventure Game is. Although in Ron Gilbert's defense, he also writes: > As I read this some 15 years later, I'm not sure I agree with everything in here anymore. I learned a lot from Monkey Island 1 and 2, plus countless kids Adventure Games at Humongous Entertainment. At some point in the near future, I will do an annotated version of this article, talking about things that have changed, or were just plains wrong. But in the meantime, there is something interesting on TV right now. So still not so much blindsighted as "never elaborated upon what he really thinks of the 1989 article these days".
- grumbel 4y ago
  I wouldn't say the genre evolved, it pretty much peaked back in the early 90s and hasn't seen any serious improvements since. The pie-menus of Curse of Monkey Island were about the last lasting improvement I can think of. Everything else turned out a short lived gimmick, an outright failure (e.g. controls in MI4/Grim) or just a watering down (e.g. casual hidden-object games). And while narrative have become far more important in other genres, those style of narratives are completely different to what a point&click would offer. Action games are about action, you shoot or slash through things. You kill stuff. Narrative happens in cut-scenes without player control. It's not part of the gameplay. That's what makes point&click games special, as the there is no disconnect, the narrative is driven by the players the actions. And while there are certainly some RPGs that cross the line, not many do. The mainstream RPG is still obsessed with stats, collecting dozens of the same item and stuff like that. In a point&click almost everything is unique, there are no faceless copy&paste NPCs, no mountains of useless items to collect. If you find an item in a point&click, it's very likely part of the plot in some form.

msh 4y ago

He thinking things like kings quest, monkey island and so on. I would not consider zela an adventure game in this genre.

talideon 4y ago

No, the LoZ series aren't adventure games in the original sense, which encompassed text adventures (now termed "interactive fiction") and point-and-click adventures. You also have the extra hint that this is Ron Gilbert's site, and if you know anything about him, the context for "adventure game" is pretty clear. Such games are story and puzzle heavy rather than having much in the way of action.

eloisant 4y ago

He is talking about "point and click" adventure games like Monkey Island, the Sierra games, etc. Legend of Zelda clearly isn't a point and click game.

ehnto 4y ago

The term Adventure has been overloaded, but it used to be a fairly concrete concept. Something like Legend of Zelda has adventure game elements in it, but it's much more action, combat and movement, something "traditional" adventure games don't have. Text adventure games are really the best example of the concepts that an adventure game usually has, even though they can also be graphical, like Monkey Island or Full Throttle. A more recent game series like Deponia fits the bill as well. I would say that there are a lot more games with old school adventure mechanics coming out than people might realise. A lot of them get bundled into the "Walking Simulator" category, but are far more Adventure game than anything else.

elondaits 4y ago

I would call Legend of Zelda an action RPG. Although it has some puzzles, the main activity is exploring and fighting, your equipment and skills improve as you advance (allowing you to face against tougher monsters) and part of the challenge is administering consumable resources (e.g. healing items). There’s always been a big overlap between adventures and rpgs… but the article talks about issues characteristic of the purest examples of the adventure genre (most Infocom text adventures, Sierra, Lucasarts, etc)

dwighttk 4y ago

“I wrote this back in 1989 while I was designing Monkey Island. It is now the futuristic year of 2004 and we are all driving around in flying cars and wearing sliver jumps suits.”