4 ms·

> Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. Please explain how, exactly. > I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of leg

> Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. Please explain how, exactly. > I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to. Operating one on the side with some in-laws, I'm quite well aware of the legislation. Yet I'm still not aware of a single instance where a food truck operator became a felon overnight because they had a "high capacity grill". In what cases can a food truck operator become a felon when their activities that made them a felon were legal the literal day before? > If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon Why is overnight in quotes? Do you not believe I was using the correct definition of literally? > Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. I think you'll find that a great majority of us are responsible, that's why we know about these laws and the ATF. I can't say the same for those that are pro gun control, they tend to be very ill informed on the subject and assume others are. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be responsible, we're saying they shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily remove rights from people because of who's politically in control of the ATF. If you take a step back and remove personal bias, every sane person in the US would agree. > If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances. You're clearly going on some rant here that I'm not sure where you're basing this argument from and it really shows your bias (which has no place on a forum of engineers and other technical people). The point being if this were laws being passed by congress, with months of advanced notice, nobody would be complaining. The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given.

schoen 4y ago
> The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given. ATF rules get published in the Code of Federal Regulations https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/chapter-II https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/chapter-II and are subject to the Administrative Procedure Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act_(... and therefore are announced ahead of time in Notices of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRMs) published in the Federal Register https://www.regulations.gov/search?agencyIds=ATF&documentTypes=Proposed%20Rule https://www.regulations.gov/search?agencyIds=ATF&documentTyp... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/search?conditions%5Bagencies%5D%5B%5D=alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau&conditions%5Btype%5D%5B%5D=PRORULE# https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/search?conditions%... and later, upon finalization, published again in the same place. I don't mean to defend the scope of ATF's (or other agencies') power or discretion, which is quite broad, but the ambush rule with just a few hours' notice is pretty implausible under the APA. Normally the APA calls for at least 30 days' notice, and months are more typical. https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaki... There is an emergency rulemaking exception under the APA for "good-cause", but this is comparatively rarely used and (like other aspects of a rule) may be reviewed by the courts. ATF knows that it has a lot of critics who are likely to sue to challenge its rulemakings, and has often taken a considerable amount of time to make new rules even when there was a lot of political pressure brought to bear in favor of expanding regulations. It's unfortunate that you might have to go to court to vindicate your rights under the APA, but that's almost equally unfortunately true of almost anything improper that any part of government might do to you. If a police officer decided to randomly seize your weapons because he just thought they looked scary and you oughtn't own something so dangerous-looking, you would also need to go to court to establish that the police office wasn't entitled to do that. Or if, like in the Hitchhiker's Guide, a local government authority decided to demolish your house without proper notice, you'd probably also have to go through the courts to get a remedy.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  Great response, thank you. To add, I’m down to talk to about governmental overreach if we can rationally prioritize issues. Gp seems to prioritize absolutist gun rights. I’m keen to consider extrajudicial murder, extrajudicial armed robbery by police, the separation of church and state, or the Supreme courts usurpation by the federalist society - before I think it’s worth discussing the loosening of gun rights in this country that has more gun involved MCEs (military conflicts excluded) than every other country combined. As I’ve strayed a bit from the topic I’ll bring my point back by saying; sure there’s issues worth complaining about in almost every us regulatory process, but let’s prioritize by how many lives we can improve instead of lesser reasons that are used as a fundraising platform by the minority political party without regard for the trail of destruction their reckless policies engender.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
I left the exercise of relating my arguments to your statements to you and am doing the same here. Are you aware of the origins of the fda? Chefs and pharmacists got rightfully chilled by the dozens of bills it took to fully reign in their murderous proclivities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Food_and_Drug... The only reasons that we’re having this discussion is because of elementary (bad faith) disagreements over the semantic interpretation of laws that predate world changing technologies our great grand parents took for granted in their childhood. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-conservatives-reinvented-the-second-amendment/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-conservatives... Overnight is in quotes because your use of it is needlessly inflammatory. One felony conviction equates a lifetime felon. Your usage of overnight is superfluous and only acts as a conservative dog whistle in your comments. Who is us, precisely? Names, addresses, and gun permit numbers please. I like to stay as far away from anti-regulation outspoken second amendment types as possible. They’re too shooty and screamy. That said, what are you and your “responsible” gun owners doing to control the irresponsible ones? If responsible people set the rules we wouldn’t have drunk driving laws, or urine screens at work, or even currency. The nra has only supported gun control legislation when its toothless or black people are effectively asserting the same rights. If not The nra being the de facto national steering body and figure head for the “responsible gun owner” cohort then who? I’ve not heard of any organization with a fraction the membership of that side of the gun control war. https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-... Funny how you cast the people with your beliefs in a broad positive brush and those who consider your beliefs the direct cause of countless deaths in a broad negative brush. Some might consider that an argument in bad faith. The anarchist and socialist gun owners I know all know to code switch when talking to people proudly exclaiming the same beliefs as you. Your appeal to authority is dehumanizing, fallacious, and thoroughly refuted by a sibling comment to your post. It’s up to you recognize that your beliefs create a perverse incentive to engage in illegal vigilantism and thus in order to protect democracy and secure the most rights for the most people we must continue to aggressively regulate firearms until their misuse is inline with peer countries. All other domestic attempts to curtail wanton gun violence and vigilantism have failed to have substantial. The time has passed for 2a absolutists to be taken rationally as we’re witnessing countless preventable murders of children go unaddressed. https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Booklet1.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Bookle... Drop the bad faith flame bait and transparent insults. You’re sidestepping my points and demanding I engage you on your terms. It’s uncouth and ironically hypocritical. This is no rant, but I can understand why someone of your beliefs may feel that way. I am a recovered 1-2a absolutist libertarian myself, and I cannot help but full body cringe at the ridiculous justifications and mental gymnastics I used to justify my hatred, prejudices, and wave away the inevitable externalities in such a society that is so improbable it cannot even exist in fiction.

schoen 4y ago

> The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given. ATF rules get published in the Code of Federal Regulations https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/chapter-II https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/chapter-II and are subject to the Administrative Procedure Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act_(... and therefore are announced ahead of time in Notices of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRMs) published in the Federal Register https://www.regulations.gov/search?agencyIds=ATF&documentTypes=Proposed%20Rule https://www.regulations.gov/search?agencyIds=ATF&documentTyp... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/search?conditions%5Bagencies%5D%5B%5D=alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives-bureau&conditions%5Btype%5D%5B%5D=PRORULE# https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/search?conditions%... and later, upon finalization, published again in the same place. I don't mean to defend the scope of ATF's (or other agencies') power or discretion, which is quite broad, but the ambush rule with just a few hours' notice is pretty implausible under the APA. Normally the APA calls for at least 30 days' notice, and months are more typical. https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf https://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaki... There is an emergency rulemaking exception under the APA for "good-cause", but this is comparatively rarely used and (like other aspects of a rule) may be reviewed by the courts. ATF knows that it has a lot of critics who are likely to sue to challenge its rulemakings, and has often taken a considerable amount of time to make new rules even when there was a lot of political pressure brought to bear in favor of expanding regulations. It's unfortunate that you might have to go to court to vindicate your rights under the APA, but that's almost equally unfortunately true of almost anything improper that any part of government might do to you. If a police officer decided to randomly seize your weapons because he just thought they looked scary and you oughtn't own something so dangerous-looking, you would also need to go to court to establish that the police office wasn't entitled to do that. Or if, like in the Hitchhiker's Guide, a local government authority decided to demolish your house without proper notice, you'd probably also have to go through the courts to get a remedy.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
Great response, thank you. To add, I’m down to talk to about governmental overreach if we can rationally prioritize issues. Gp seems to prioritize absolutist gun rights. I’m keen to consider extrajudicial murder, extrajudicial armed robbery by police, the separation of church and state, or the Supreme courts usurpation by the federalist society - before I think it’s worth discussing the loosening of gun rights in this country that has more gun involved MCEs (military conflicts excluded) than every other country combined. As I’ve strayed a bit from the topic I’ll bring my point back by saying; sure there’s issues worth complaining about in almost every us regulatory process, but let’s prioritize by how many lives we can improve instead of lesser reasons that are used as a fundraising platform by the minority political party without regard for the trail of destruction their reckless policies engender.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago

I left the exercise of relating my arguments to your statements to you and am doing the same here. Are you aware of the origins of the fda? Chefs and pharmacists got rightfully chilled by the dozens of bills it took to fully reign in their murderous proclivities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Food_and_Drug... The only reasons that we’re having this discussion is because of elementary (bad faith) disagreements over the semantic interpretation of laws that predate world changing technologies our great grand parents took for granted in their childhood. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-conservatives-reinvented-the-second-amendment/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-conservatives... Overnight is in quotes because your use of it is needlessly inflammatory. One felony conviction equates a lifetime felon. Your usage of overnight is superfluous and only acts as a conservative dog whistle in your comments. Who is us, precisely? Names, addresses, and gun permit numbers please. I like to stay as far away from anti-regulation outspoken second amendment types as possible. They’re too shooty and screamy. That said, what are you and your “responsible” gun owners doing to control the irresponsible ones? If responsible people set the rules we wouldn’t have drunk driving laws, or urine screens at work, or even currency. The nra has only supported gun control legislation when its toothless or black people are effectively asserting the same rights. If not The nra being the de facto national steering body and figure head for the “responsible gun owner” cohort then who? I’ve not heard of any organization with a fraction the membership of that side of the gun control war. https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-... Funny how you cast the people with your beliefs in a broad positive brush and those who consider your beliefs the direct cause of countless deaths in a broad negative brush. Some might consider that an argument in bad faith. The anarchist and socialist gun owners I know all know to code switch when talking to people proudly exclaiming the same beliefs as you. Your appeal to authority is dehumanizing, fallacious, and thoroughly refuted by a sibling comment to your post. It’s up to you recognize that your beliefs create a perverse incentive to engage in illegal vigilantism and thus in order to protect democracy and secure the most rights for the most people we must continue to aggressively regulate firearms until their misuse is inline with peer countries. All other domestic attempts to curtail wanton gun violence and vigilantism have failed to have substantial. The time has passed for 2a absolutists to be taken rationally as we’re witnessing countless preventable murders of children go unaddressed. https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Booklet1.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/Bookle... Drop the bad faith flame bait and transparent insults. You’re sidestepping my points and demanding I engage you on your terms. It’s uncouth and ironically hypocritical. This is no rant, but I can understand why someone of your beliefs may feel that way. I am a recovered 1-2a absolutist libertarian myself, and I cannot help but full body cringe at the ridiculous justifications and mental gymnastics I used to justify my hatred, prejudices, and wave away the inevitable externalities in such a society that is so improbable it cannot even exist in fiction.