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I've heard this argument many times from Rust enthusiasts, most of whom do not work in C, C++, or even write system level software. Of the kernels that I have w

I've heard this argument many times from Rust enthusiasts, most of whom do not work in C, C++, or even write system level software. Of the kernels that I have worked on, the Linux kernel core is very high quality C (even if many of the drivers are not), and other large parts of the stack like grub and systemd are also written in C and yet the sky isn't falling for users around the globe (and on other planets).

woodruffw 4y ago
I can't speak for that group. I've been doing systems programming in C for about a decade now, and C++ for about half a decade; that includes both kernelspace programming and compiler development. I'm not claiming that the Linux kernel core isn't high quality (or is, for that matter). I'm claiming that the kernel maintainers increasingly have to resort to all kinds of extensions and tricks to keep optimizing compilers from simply deleting their code, because nothing about C's semantics reflect the "bare metal."
hither_shores 4y ago
> the Linux kernel core is very high quality C The Linux kernel core is the product of decades of effort by thousands of people, many of them world-class experts in the relevant domains. Very, very few software projects receive anything close to that. No one is claiming that writing safe C code is impossible; the problem is that writing unsafe C code is easy.
chlorion 4y ago
The Linux kernel has a constant stream of fairly severe, exploitable bugs caused by memory safety errors, not to mention non-exploitable bugs that lead to system instability or even data loss. Just a few months back there was a bug that allowed any completely unprivileged user to elevate straight to root using a combination of unprivileged user namespaces and cgroups. Other than RCE or severe data loss, I would say this is one of the most severe forms of bugs possible in a kernel. For some period of time the kernel's basic security features were completely ineffective, and this is possibly one of the most widely used kernels in the world! Severe security related bugs are really common with our OS's and user space software, and we just pretend that it's not a problem. When your kernel can't even offer basic security isolation between users in a reliable manner, when visiting a malformed website with your browser results in arbitrary code execution, or when a malformed message sent to you phone can completely own it, I would say there is a serious problem.
cercatrova 4y ago
And the Linux kernel is introducing Rust code [0] due to the fact that even Linus Torvalds acknowledges that Rust solves issues that would be prevalent in C code. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-rust-will-go-into-linux-6-1/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-rust-will-go-in...

woodruffw 4y ago

I can't speak for that group. I've been doing systems programming in C for about a decade now, and C++ for about half a decade; that includes both kernelspace programming and compiler development. I'm not claiming that the Linux kernel core isn't high quality (or is, for that matter). I'm claiming that the kernel maintainers increasingly have to resort to all kinds of extensions and tricks to keep optimizing compilers from simply deleting their code, because nothing about C's semantics reflect the "bare metal."

hither_shores 4y ago

> the Linux kernel core is very high quality C The Linux kernel core is the product of decades of effort by thousands of people, many of them world-class experts in the relevant domains. Very, very few software projects receive anything close to that. No one is claiming that writing safe C code is impossible; the problem is that writing unsafe C code is easy.

chlorion 4y ago

The Linux kernel has a constant stream of fairly severe, exploitable bugs caused by memory safety errors, not to mention non-exploitable bugs that lead to system instability or even data loss. Just a few months back there was a bug that allowed any completely unprivileged user to elevate straight to root using a combination of unprivileged user namespaces and cgroups. Other than RCE or severe data loss, I would say this is one of the most severe forms of bugs possible in a kernel. For some period of time the kernel's basic security features were completely ineffective, and this is possibly one of the most widely used kernels in the world! Severe security related bugs are really common with our OS's and user space software, and we just pretend that it's not a problem. When your kernel can't even offer basic security isolation between users in a reliable manner, when visiting a malformed website with your browser results in arbitrary code execution, or when a malformed message sent to you phone can completely own it, I would say there is a serious problem.

cercatrova 4y ago

And the Linux kernel is introducing Rust code [0] due to the fact that even Linus Torvalds acknowledges that Rust solves issues that would be prevalent in C code. [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-rust-will-go-into-linux-6-1/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-rust-will-go-in...