5 ms·

> Even if SARS-CoV-2 really entered humans in December, with minimal cryptic spread, that's still enough time for the two lineages to evolve in humans, since th

> Even if SARS-CoV-2 really entered humans in December, with minimal cryptic spread, that's still enough time for the two lineages to evolve in humans, since they're (sorry) just two SNPs apart. This isn't the evidence the authors present. The argument isn't "there isn't enough time to go from A -> B." IIRC, I've seen similar acknowledgements that even more rare mutations have been observed in a single transmission during the course of the pandemic. They're just highly improbable. The most direct evidence (as I see it) for B not evolving from A in humans is the unexpected lack of genetic divergence in lineage A compared to B. Lineage B should show a younger molecular clock, it doesn't. > I believe Worobey knows this, and that's the reason why he emphasizes the "Separate introductions" model, since their polytomy thing--and not any question of time for cryptic spread--is their best and only argument to exclude that. So I was wrong to mention the tMRCA at all, since even perfect knowledge of that wouldn't tell us confidently how the two lineages arose. Nonsense. The tMRCA is key evidence in how the lineages arose. One of the reasons for the epi modeling was to figure out the plausible time between the primary case and index case. It shows there is at most a few dozen people infected before the genetic diversity was captured through sampling. (`Results: Minimal cryptic circulation of SARS`) I don't think you understand their argument here, at all. > Not only is their argument for two introductions not a standard molecular clock approach, but it's not a molecular clock approach at all, since "Inferring" provides no support > So why did you switch to "Inferring"? I don't understand why you're bristling and reading into the terminology here. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phylogenetic-inference/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phylogenetic-inference/ Please elaborate why you think their use of the molecular clock is novel. It's really not. > Do you believe otherwise? Or do you just mean the approach is of general interest, independently of that question of origin? As explained above, I think the authors provide compelling evidence of multiple introductions using solid phylogenetic inference and solid molecular epidemiology. Bottom line is that there simply isn't an alternate hypothesis which explains the available evidence, and they illustrate why. Here's a video you might not have seen, with Pekar and Wertheim. I've cued up the portion with a great explanation of why the evidence in the MRCA and genomics is so important. If you're going to continue to try and tear down their arguments, you probably want to really get this part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYqJCdqdkio&t=3330 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYqJCdqdkio&t=3330 (especially 1h12m45, and 1h19m)

tripletao 4y ago
I think I understand what Worobey and Pekar write on Twitter, though I disagree with much of it. I don't understand what you're saying, so I'm afraid we're still talking past each other. Do you agree that there are two mostly-independent models in the paper, one described in the section titled "Inferring the MRCA of SARS-CoV-2", and another in the section titled "Separate introductions of lineages A and B"? When I write "Inferring" and "Separate", I am referring to the models described in the sections with titles beginning with those respective words. You wrote earlier: > His epi simulations are separate from the tree-building, with the possible exception of rooting, which he was using the output of the models to inform. Otherwise, the epi modeling which everyone is hand wringing over is really separate and doesn't end "in a simulated phylogenetic tree." As to "Separate", I believe that's incorrect. That model begins with an SIR-type simulation, and outputs the shape (polytomy structure) of the phylogenetic tree of that simulated pandemic, which they compare against the shape of the real pandemic's phylogenetic tree. Do you disagree? If so, what do you believe is the output of that "Separate" model? I agree that the "Inferring" model does not depend on the epidemic simulation. I don't believe the "Inferring" model provides significant support for two introductions though. I believe that's the reason why most public debate has been about "Separate".
- oasisbob 4y ago
  Yeah, I think we're basically on the same page with their methodology and models now. I didn't realize you were nicknaming the models based on applying them to the result titles, so was quite confused, especially when we both used those words in the quoted sections, so it sounded like you were referring to portions of our conversation. So yeah, talking right past each other. No, the two models don't correspond to the results cleanly. ie, when the authors claim "Separate introductions of lineages A and B" in the results, they provide evidence from both. (They're presenting the results of the models in support of their phylogeny.) I agree that "Inferring the MRCA of SARS-CoV-2" is pretty much independent of the epi stuff. > As to "Separate", I believe that's incorrect. That model begins with an SIR-type simulation, and outputs the shape (polytomy structure) of the phylogenetic tree of that simulated pandemic, which they compare against the shape of the real pandemic's phylogenetic tree. Do you disagree? If so, what do you believe is the output of that "Separate" model? I thought we were over this. We both agree that one of the results of the epi simulations was sampled genetics and a resulting tree from the simulation. That doesn't mean that their phylogeny is the direct result of their epi simulations. Their simulations are in support of their phylogeny. Their theorized phylogeny essentially existed prior to the modeling, and which is why I called them separate, ie, independent. The `Materials and methods summary` is quite clear, especially `Phylodynamic inference and epidemic simulations`. edit: Our thread is too deep for HN, might not be able to reply? I'll try and keep an eye for new replies if you want to fork off somewhere else. But, where's your horse in this race? You speak a lot about what you think sucks and very little about what you actually believe here. > I agree that the "Inferring" model does not depend on the epidemic simulation. I don't believe the "Inferring" model provides significant support for two introductions though. I believe that's the reason why most public debate has been about "Separate". Funny. My theory is that most people don't have enough knowledge of molecular genetics to make heads or tails of the paper, and so are of course silent on those results. They didn't follow the debate over the past few years, and are showing up and trying to understand something without context or the requisite knowledge. When you say "Public debate" you need to admit you're talking about a particular part of a particular website or two where a small number of people are picking at nits and can't even address the core of the findings the authors present here.

tripletao 4y ago

I think I understand what Worobey and Pekar write on Twitter, though I disagree with much of it. I don't understand what you're saying, so I'm afraid we're still talking past each other. Do you agree that there are two mostly-independent models in the paper, one described in the section titled "Inferring the MRCA of SARS-CoV-2", and another in the section titled "Separate introductions of lineages A and B"? When I write "Inferring" and "Separate", I am referring to the models described in the sections with titles beginning with those respective words. You wrote earlier: > His epi simulations are separate from the tree-building, with the possible exception of rooting, which he was using the output of the models to inform. Otherwise, the epi modeling which everyone is hand wringing over is really separate and doesn't end "in a simulated phylogenetic tree." As to "Separate", I believe that's incorrect. That model begins with an SIR-type simulation, and outputs the shape (polytomy structure) of the phylogenetic tree of that simulated pandemic, which they compare against the shape of the real pandemic's phylogenetic tree. Do you disagree? If so, what do you believe is the output of that "Separate" model? I agree that the "Inferring" model does not depend on the epidemic simulation. I don't believe the "Inferring" model provides significant support for two introductions though. I believe that's the reason why most public debate has been about "Separate".

oasisbob 4y ago
Yeah, I think we're basically on the same page with their methodology and models now. I didn't realize you were nicknaming the models based on applying them to the result titles, so was quite confused, especially when we both used those words in the quoted sections, so it sounded like you were referring to portions of our conversation. So yeah, talking right past each other. No, the two models don't correspond to the results cleanly. ie, when the authors claim "Separate introductions of lineages A and B" in the results, they provide evidence from both. (They're presenting the results of the models in support of their phylogeny.) I agree that "Inferring the MRCA of SARS-CoV-2" is pretty much independent of the epi stuff. > As to "Separate", I believe that's incorrect. That model begins with an SIR-type simulation, and outputs the shape (polytomy structure) of the phylogenetic tree of that simulated pandemic, which they compare against the shape of the real pandemic's phylogenetic tree. Do you disagree? If so, what do you believe is the output of that "Separate" model? I thought we were over this. We both agree that one of the results of the epi simulations was sampled genetics and a resulting tree from the simulation. That doesn't mean that their phylogeny is the direct result of their epi simulations. Their simulations are in support of their phylogeny. Their theorized phylogeny essentially existed prior to the modeling, and which is why I called them separate, ie, independent. The `Materials and methods summary` is quite clear, especially `Phylodynamic inference and epidemic simulations`. edit: Our thread is too deep for HN, might not be able to reply? I'll try and keep an eye for new replies if you want to fork off somewhere else. But, where's your horse in this race? You speak a lot about what you think sucks and very little about what you actually believe here. > I agree that the "Inferring" model does not depend on the epidemic simulation. I don't believe the "Inferring" model provides significant support for two introductions though. I believe that's the reason why most public debate has been about "Separate". Funny. My theory is that most people don't have enough knowledge of molecular genetics to make heads or tails of the paper, and so are of course silent on those results. They didn't follow the debate over the past few years, and are showing up and trying to understand something without context or the requisite knowledge. When you say "Public debate" you need to admit you're talking about a particular part of a particular website or two where a small number of people are picking at nits and can't even address the core of the findings the authors present here.