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First, I should say that my account has been flagged for participating in a flamewar due to my responses in this thread. While crime in Sweden is a subject I a

First, I should say that my account has been flagged for participating in a flamewar due to my responses in this thread. While crime in Sweden is a subject I am very much interested in, it seems my discussion of the topic is not appreciated on HackerNews. As I don't want to be banned, I will refrain from commenting any further in this thread - sorry. There's something of an elusive aspect to this argument. When I say that Sweden is the regional leader for rape I mean that Sweden's reported rape count is higher than any other country in Europe. When you say that this is a "deliberate misreading" what you mean is that maybe, in some countries you can't name, they have different laws and reporting aggregations, and maybe those differences affect the reported numbers in ways you can't quantify, and maybe that means Sweden doesn't really have the most rapes in Europe. Yes, that's true, but not really meaningful. Maybe Sweden has more. I'm sure you'll object to my characterization. Your Wikipedia source listed an expert saying that there were 16 countries in Europe who would aggregate multiple rapes into a single offense! But in reply, I would say that the paper[1] linked to doesn't name these countries and it is more than 20 years out of date (the paper cites a European Council that took place in 1999 for this claim). Sweden's laws regarding rape have changed in the last 20 years, have the laws of these other unnamed countries changed? This is what I mean by being elusive. If you told me that in Sweden X would count as rape and in Belgium X would not be rape, then I'd google it and see if sources on Belgium law confirmed that X is not rape. Then I'd see if we could quantify how many rapes X contributed relative to Belgium, and so on. But instead, all I get from Swedish rape apologists is that there are some unknown countries and unknown ways that mean Sweden's apparently high rape statistics aren't really an issue. Likewise, the incident you mentioned from 1993. Is that what you are saying explains the current rape rates? Does it explain part of it? Can you quantify it? Or is this just some other observation you can make to obfuscate the issue? This is the same point with regards to trust in the police. Maybe trust in police contributes to a high rape rate, but you have absolutely no reason to think so. You just throw out "Maybe this" style speculation - and yes, maybe that's relevant, but you should probably try to figure out if it is relevant and how before just tossing it out as if it explained anything. Again, I'm sure you'll object - you provided that statista link showing women trust the police. But did you even read it? "Also when it comes to the police's ability to solve crimes 19 percent of Swedish women and only 11 percent the men perceive that the police is doing a good job. But nevertheless, most of surveyed people stated that they are doing a bad job in terms of solving crimes." 19% of Swedish women think the police are doing a good job (from 2016) solving crime and most people think they are doing a bad job. So that is supposed to be evidence that Swedish women's faith in police drives them to report rapes more frequently than the rest of Europe? Huh? I'm not even sure how I should respond to arguments like this because first, it's less than half of what you need - you need to show that Swedish women trust police more than the rest of Europe, and second that trust in police drives rape reporting. This doesn't compare to the rest of Europe and it doesn't establish the connection to rape reporting. Second, the link itself says the opposite of what you use it to support - most Swedish women do not have faith that the police will do a good job. Finally, you conclude by saying that you're not going to be my research while I just "Ask Questions". This is a fitting end because you again repeat left wing tropes without thinking about them. I am not "Just Asking Questions." I made a direct assertion, explained it, and supported it with evidence. Sweden is the regional leader for rape, the reported statistics of European countries confirm this. You, meanwhile, uncritically repeat the explanation from the Swedish government - which is, ironically, to "Just ask questions". Maybe one woman is getting raped a thousand times a year and that happens every year in Sweden. Maybe every other country in Europe multiplies their rape count by 0.01 before they report it. Maybe - yeah, I get it. Well, since I'm "Just Asking Questions" anyway - do you think the fact that most Swedish rapists are foreign born[2] and that Sweden recently admitted hundreds of thousands of disproportionately male immigrants[3] from countries in the Middle East and North Africa, that typically have a lower regard for women's rights than Sweden, has more or less to do with Sweden's high rape rates than the counting and definitional things you can't describe? 1 - https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1008713631586 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1008713631586 2 - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 3 - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refugees-migrant-crisis-men-213500/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refug...

eesmith 4y ago
> When you say that this is a "deliberate misreading" what you mean is that maybe, in some countries you can't name, I named two - Denmark and Norway. > Your Wikipedia source listed an expert Wikipedia gives several different sources. I verified the first three contain the appropriate supporting information. > doesn't name these countries Except that one of the sources explicitly named Norway and Denmark. > all I get from Swedish rape apologists is that there are some unknown countries and unknown ways Except that I gave a specific example of how Sweden is different from Norway and Denmark. Why should I think Belgium and Sweden are more similar than Sweden and Norway? Why should I think Greece and Sweden are more similar? And you can clearly see from that example that reporting methods are not quantified in the law, so looking only to Control-F the law isn't enough. > Sweden's laws regarding rape have changed in the last 20 years, have the laws of these other unnamed countries changed? Is your thesis that all European countries have not only the same definition of rape but also the same reporting methods? And that the multiple independent sources through the decades which say they are different, are wrong? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Where is your evidence? If it's so apparently wrong, where are the published scholarly papers which show BRÅ and other experts use the wrong scales? Why is it limited to right-wingers and random internet commenters? > Second, the link itself says the opposite of what you use it to support - most Swedish women do not have faith that the police will do a good job. Take a look at the table again and see that you've misread it. Here's the data: Women Men Very high trust 8% 6% High trust 41% 26% <--- see this one? Neither trust 22% 23% nor distrust Little trust 20% 28% Very little 8% 16% trust In Sweden, women trust the police more than men. Since you haven't read the basic papers cited by Wikipedia, since you've misrepresented or ignored what I've read, and since you can't read a data table, I don't think you should be so sure of your ability to do research on this topic. > has more or less to do with Sweden's high rape rates than the counting and definitional things you can't describe? One of the problems with JAQing off is these answers have long ago been addressed, which means you don't actually care about the answers. FWIW, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-... : "Statistical evidence shows that rape in Sweden is not on the rise. Reported cases have remained steady for almost a decade", including the period before the recent wave of immigrants. Repeating these questions at this point is pretty hard to distinguish from baseless right-wing racist fearmongering.

eesmith 4y ago

> When you say that this is a "deliberate misreading" what you mean is that maybe, in some countries you can't name, I named two - Denmark and Norway. > Your Wikipedia source listed an expert Wikipedia gives several different sources. I verified the first three contain the appropriate supporting information. > doesn't name these countries Except that one of the sources explicitly named Norway and Denmark. > all I get from Swedish rape apologists is that there are some unknown countries and unknown ways Except that I gave a specific example of how Sweden is different from Norway and Denmark. Why should I think Belgium and Sweden are more similar than Sweden and Norway? Why should I think Greece and Sweden are more similar? And you can clearly see from that example that reporting methods are not quantified in the law, so looking only to Control-F the law isn't enough. > Sweden's laws regarding rape have changed in the last 20 years, have the laws of these other unnamed countries changed? Is your thesis that all European countries have not only the same definition of rape but also the same reporting methods? And that the multiple independent sources through the decades which say they are different, are wrong? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Where is your evidence? If it's so apparently wrong, where are the published scholarly papers which show BRÅ and other experts use the wrong scales? Why is it limited to right-wingers and random internet commenters? > Second, the link itself says the opposite of what you use it to support - most Swedish women do not have faith that the police will do a good job. Take a look at the table again and see that you've misread it. Here's the data: Women Men Very high trust 8% 6% High trust 41% 26% <--- see this one? Neither trust 22% 23% nor distrust Little trust 20% 28% Very little 8% 16% trust In Sweden, women trust the police more than men. Since you haven't read the basic papers cited by Wikipedia, since you've misrepresented or ignored what I've read, and since you can't read a data table, I don't think you should be so sure of your ability to do research on this topic. > has more or less to do with Sweden's high rape rates than the counting and definitional things you can't describe? One of the problems with JAQing off is these answers have long ago been addressed, which means you don't actually care about the answers. FWIW, https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-... : "Statistical evidence shows that rape in Sweden is not on the rise. Reported cases have remained steady for almost a decade", including the period before the recent wave of immigrants. Repeating these questions at this point is pretty hard to distinguish from baseless right-wing racist fearmongering.