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> - first, which jurisdictions in Europe would consolidate 30 rapes into a single rape count? The Wikipedia link I mentioned says "In many other countries only
by eesmith 4y ago
> - first, which jurisdictions in Europe would consolidate 30 rapes into a single rape count?
The Wikipedia link I mentioned says "In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.[23][13][24][15][16]"
I verified the first three of those:
[23] is by "Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm", and it seems you've decided that is not a reputable source.
[13] says: "Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. In extreme cases only a single offence will be counted, and this seems to be the situation in at least 16 European countries according the Council of Europe’s presentation (Council of Europe 1999:1.C.1.1)."
[24] gives an example of how Sweden differ from Norway and Denmark: "Furthermore, if a woman is subjected to repeated rapes during the same day by the same perpetrator, this may be registered as one or several crimes, depending on whether it is possible to distinguish each separate act. In Denmark and Norway, the statistics refer to cases. In general, one case will be opened for each victim, so the statistics do not indicate the actual number of rapes."
> Second, do you have any reason to think that the daily rape of wives by their husbands drives the high rape count in Sweden?
I have no reason to single out any particular factor. Rather, I am pointing out that your claim that Sweden is the top of Europe for rape is very difficult to support, and comparing raw numbers is effectively meaningless.
> I'm trying to imagine what you think is going on - the wife drops in to the police station to say "Hello, for the past thirty days my husband has been raping me"
That's an argument by incredulity.
I found the paper by von Hofer (the [13] above) to be quite interesting because it addresses a similar example.
Did you know that during one month in 1993 the number of rape reports in Sweden went from 150 to 270?
Quoting von Hofer: the high figure recorded in 1993 is in large part the result of a single report relating to a young male victim who had been sexually abused by his stepfather over a 10-year period. This very special case describes in a nutshell a number of the characteristics typical of Swedish crime statistics:
] it is the number of ‘alleged’ offences that is counted, not victims or cases; the victim was not a female, but rather a male;
] none of the offences had been committed during 1993, but rather over the course of several years prior to this: the increase in rape offences in 1993 and the subsequent reduction is thus in part illusory, being the result of this ‘over-reporting’ in 1993;
I also found it hard to imagine, but the point is, it happens. Don't use your incredulity as your simple reason to reject expert opinion.
> It's also an obvious rhetorical trick to compare present day rapes in Sweden to archaic laws that existed in the US until ~50 years ago
It's a rhetorical technique, yes. But it's not a disappearing trick. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_Sta... and see examples like:
] For instance, a person in Oklahoma can not charge her/his spouse for rape if she/he is compelled to submit due to drugs "administered by or with the privity of the accused as a means of forcing the victim to submit", or when she/he is unconscious, as these situations are dealt under subsection (A) of Section 1111 which define rape as intercourse "with a male or female who is not the spouse of the perpetrator".
In Sweden, that counts as rape. In Oklahoma, it's not rape.
> Have you done that?
That's an obvious rhetorical trick too.
I don't think you've done it either. Nor even read the sources Wikipedia cites, which is certainly easier to do.
> what I mean is that Sweden's numbers, Sweden's rape stats, are higher
Sure. And what I mean is, you cannot meaningfully use those numbers to conclude "rape capital".
Again, for one month in 1993 the number of reported rapes in Sweden nearly doubled. For that month, did that Swedish province meaningfully become the rape capital of the country?
I certainly don't think so.
Even though that's using an "objective comparison (reported figures to reported figures)."
> Do Swedish women trust the police more than the women of other countries in Europe? Have you ever looked into that? Swedish police have extremely low clearance rates for rape - why would Swedish women have special trust in them?
Yes I did, back when this was the hot-topic pushed by right-wingers.
The Swedish numbers regarding trust, clearance rates, etc. were better for Sweden than the US. (I am a US citizen, so that's what I cared about.)
The Nordic countries trusted the police more than most of Europe. Quoting https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf
] Figure 2 shows that opinions of the procedural fairness of the police vary more widely across Europe. ... Ukraine, Russian Federation and Israel have the least positive views on how the police treat people, while Denmark, Finland, Norway and Spain have the most positive views.
After Norway was Switzerland and then Sweden.
And women in Sweden appear to "trust the police in how they handle their duties" https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-in-the-police-in-sweden-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-i...
The clearance numbers were strongly affected by national policies concerning "report" and "crime" and how things are tallied. As I recall, that was in the BRÅ report which you appear to reject outright.
But really, I did all this years ago and don't remember the details. I'm not going to be your personal research assistant while you Just Ask Questions.
- ALittleLight 4y agoFirst, I should say that my account has been flagged for participating in a flamewar due to my responses in this thread. While crime in Sweden is a subject I am very much interested in, it seems my discussion of the topic is not appreciated on HackerNews. As I don't want to be banned, I will refrain from commenting any further in this thread - sorry. There's something of an elusive aspect to this argument. When I say that Sweden is the regional leader for rape I mean that Sweden's reported rape count is higher than any other country in Europe. When you say that this is a "deliberate misreading" what you mean is that maybe, in some countries you can't name, they have different laws and reporting aggregations, and maybe those differences affect the reported numbers in ways you can't quantify, and maybe that means Sweden doesn't really have the most rapes in Europe. Yes, that's true, but not really meaningful. Maybe Sweden has more. I'm sure you'll object to my characterization. Your Wikipedia source listed an expert saying that there were 16 countries in Europe who would aggregate multiple rapes into a single offense! But in reply, I would say that the paper[1] linked to doesn't name these countries and it is more than 20 years out of date (the paper cites a European Council that took place in 1999 for this claim). Sweden's laws regarding rape have changed in the last 20 years, have the laws of these other unnamed countries changed? This is what I mean by being elusive. If you told me that in Sweden X would count as rape and in Belgium X would not be rape, then I'd google it and see if sources on Belgium law confirmed that X is not rape. Then I'd see if we could quantify how many rapes X contributed relative to Belgium, and so on. But instead, all I get from Swedish rape apologists is that there are some unknown countries and unknown ways that mean Sweden's apparently high rape statistics aren't really an issue. Likewise, the incident you mentioned from 1993. Is that what you are saying explains the current rape rates? Does it explain part of it? Can you quantify it? Or is this just some other observation you can make to obfuscate the issue? This is the same point with regards to trust in the police. Maybe trust in police contributes to a high rape rate, but you have absolutely no reason to think so. You just throw out "Maybe this" style speculation - and yes, maybe that's relevant, but you should probably try to figure out if it is relevant and how before just tossing it out as if it explained anything. Again, I'm sure you'll object - you provided that statista link showing women trust the police. But did you even read it? "Also when it comes to the police's ability to solve crimes 19 percent of Swedish women and only 11 percent the men perceive that the police is doing a good job. But nevertheless, most of surveyed people stated that they are doing a bad job in terms of solving crimes." 19% of Swedish women think the police are doing a good job (from 2016) solving crime and most people think they are doing a bad job. So that is supposed to be evidence that Swedish women's faith in police drives them to report rapes more frequently than the rest of Europe? Huh? I'm not even sure how I should respond to arguments like this because first, it's less than half of what you need - you need to show that Swedish women trust police more than the rest of Europe, and second that trust in police drives rape reporting. This doesn't compare to the rest of Europe and it doesn't establish the connection to rape reporting. Second, the link itself says the opposite of what you use it to support - most Swedish women do not have faith that the police will do a good job. Finally, you conclude by saying that you're not going to be my research while I just "Ask Questions". This is a fitting end because you again repeat left wing tropes without thinking about them. I am not "Just Asking Questions." I made a direct assertion, explained it, and supported it with evidence. Sweden is the regional leader for rape, the reported statistics of European countries confirm this. You, meanwhile, uncritically repeat the explanation from the Swedish government - which is, ironically, to "Just ask questions". Maybe one woman is getting raped a thousand times a year and that happens every year in Sweden. Maybe every other country in Europe multiplies their rape count by 0.01 before they report it. Maybe - yeah, I get it. Well, since I'm "Just Asking Questions" anyway - do you think the fact that most Swedish rapists are foreign born[2] and that Sweden recently admitted hundreds of thousands of disproportionately male immigrants[3] from countries in the Middle East and North Africa, that typically have a lower regard for women's rights than Sweden, has more or less to do with Sweden's high rape rates than the counting and definitional things you can't describe? 1 - https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1008713631586 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1008713631586 2 - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45269764 3 - https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refugees-migrant-crisis-men-213500/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refug...