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I'm not sure I'm convinced. There is a lot of variation in details between human bodies that are covered by clothing. You can infer some things, like skin ton

I'm not sure I'm convinced. There is a lot of variation in details between human bodies that are covered by clothing. You can infer some things, like skin tone and hair color, from other parts of the exposed body with pretty decent accuracy. You can infer general body shape from how the clothes fit. But for things like size, shape, color, hair, birth marks, moles, surgical modifications, etc. of various concealed body parts? All those vary wildly from person to person. Unless you have a reference image that you can use to answer those questions - I can't imagine that you will be able to infer those. If you can't infer those, you aren't getting the real body of the person you are trying to undress. You're getting a dream of what that person might look like if they were to remove their clothes - a dream that is not accurate. Not to discredit what you are saying: those dream images are definitely going to cause an entire generation of discomfort. But the cat is out of the bag and has been for some time. Artists were already capable of creating images like this without consent - but it required more talent than most humans poses to get that onto paper. Photoshop made it possible too. AI is making it even easier. Society is weird about nudity. To be fair, I am too. We have all of these constructs built around the human body and concealing it that many of us have bought into. At it's core, I think the fear of this tech and nudity is that it will be used to "steal dignity" from folks. The question is: can you steal dignity from someone with pencil and paper? Is a photorealistic sketch of your friend unclothed sufficient for them to have lost their dignity? What about photoshop? How about passing your photorealistic sketch through an AI to make it even more photorealistic? At what point have you robbed someone of dignity? Robbing someone of dignity is a social construct, in some ways this form of dignity stealing is something we _allow_ people to do to one another by buying into that construct. I do feel like the narrative we should be pushing is "that isn't my body." If we invest in breaking the construct, my hope is that we can remove the power this holds over people.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
I think this is kind of skirting around the issue. Saying that we can just focus on shifting societal norms around nudity taboos feels unrealistic. How would you envisage that happening in a timescale comparable with the development of deepfake technology? Beyond that, there's also a host of otherwise these materials can be used for targeted harassment. Sending a woman images of "herself" in extreme sexual acts can be traumatising even if the victim knows it's a fake. There's also the rise of "what would you do with her" and "irl girls" pornography on places like Reddit where unconsenting women are targeted by stalkers who sexualize and degrade them publically for kicks. This just gives them further fuel for their obsessive fantasies. The shift to being able to "see" arbitrary women as they'd look in certain positions or level of undress will also change how young men perceive real women in harmful ways in a society where women already have to deal with constant objectification. In terms of inference. Firstly it's about things like lighting, skin tone, background details etc that set the scene for us on the unconscious level and which inevitably leaves the current generation of fakes somewhere in the uncanny valley. Secondly the fact that we know they're fake didn't impact the initial associations our brain will create upon seeing them. If lies were not harmful defamation cases wouldn't be a thing.
- r3trohack3r 4y ago
  I'm not sure I'd call it skirting around the issue. More operating from inside our sphere of influence. > The shift to being able to "see" arbitrary women as they'd look in certain positions or level of undress will also change how young men perceive real women in harmful ways in a society where women already have to deal with constant objectification. There is a storyline in a children's movie about a young girl making sexually suggestive sketches of a boy in her notebook (Turning Red). The mom discovers it and confronts the boy thinking he's taken advantage of her daughter. That's going to evolve into using AI to do the same. It's not just a trope, those problems exist already; this is just going to make these cases more common. And you're nailing it with how it's going to change perceptions. These dream images are going to be created to match the fantasies of the person generating the image. Those images aren't the actual bodies of the person being undressed - it's just a fantasy created by the artist optimized to their own preferences. > Firstly it's about things like lighting, skin tone, background details etc that set the scene for us on the unconscious level and which inevitably leaves the current generation of fakes somewhere in the uncanny valley. Secondly the fact that we know they're fake didn't impact the initial associations our brain will create upon seeing them. Expert fakes exist for celebrities that pass uncanny valley without the use of AI. There are sites dedicated to cataloging celebrity images and documenting if they are fake or not. Same with request threads and WYWD threads - the stuff on message boards can be pretty convincing, enough to get to those initial associations. I'm not sure why you think otherwise. The dark corners of the internet are full of this content. This cat is out of the bag and has been for some time. The frequency is only going to increase as the bar for generating these images lowers. Photoshoppers running request threads are the bottleneck right now; soon those threads are going to be replaced with generators that spit out 100s of candidate images. We don't really have control over how others use our likeness beyond the tools the law extends to us but, even then, it only addresses the problem after it happens and doesn't stop someone from doing it in the first place. I don't see us stopping it. If we can't stop it, we either let it happen to us or we figure out how to remove its power over us at an individual level (and help others do the same). I'd like to turn this around. You're bringing up a lot of problems without solutions. Other than shifting our view of these images on a person-to-person basis, how do you see us stopping it?

AlecSchueler 4y ago

I think this is kind of skirting around the issue. Saying that we can just focus on shifting societal norms around nudity taboos feels unrealistic. How would you envisage that happening in a timescale comparable with the development of deepfake technology? Beyond that, there's also a host of otherwise these materials can be used for targeted harassment. Sending a woman images of "herself" in extreme sexual acts can be traumatising even if the victim knows it's a fake. There's also the rise of "what would you do with her" and "irl girls" pornography on places like Reddit where unconsenting women are targeted by stalkers who sexualize and degrade them publically for kicks. This just gives them further fuel for their obsessive fantasies. The shift to being able to "see" arbitrary women as they'd look in certain positions or level of undress will also change how young men perceive real women in harmful ways in a society where women already have to deal with constant objectification. In terms of inference. Firstly it's about things like lighting, skin tone, background details etc that set the scene for us on the unconscious level and which inevitably leaves the current generation of fakes somewhere in the uncanny valley. Secondly the fact that we know they're fake didn't impact the initial associations our brain will create upon seeing them. If lies were not harmful defamation cases wouldn't be a thing.

r3trohack3r 4y ago
I'm not sure I'd call it skirting around the issue. More operating from inside our sphere of influence. > The shift to being able to "see" arbitrary women as they'd look in certain positions or level of undress will also change how young men perceive real women in harmful ways in a society where women already have to deal with constant objectification. There is a storyline in a children's movie about a young girl making sexually suggestive sketches of a boy in her notebook (Turning Red). The mom discovers it and confronts the boy thinking he's taken advantage of her daughter. That's going to evolve into using AI to do the same. It's not just a trope, those problems exist already; this is just going to make these cases more common. And you're nailing it with how it's going to change perceptions. These dream images are going to be created to match the fantasies of the person generating the image. Those images aren't the actual bodies of the person being undressed - it's just a fantasy created by the artist optimized to their own preferences. > Firstly it's about things like lighting, skin tone, background details etc that set the scene for us on the unconscious level and which inevitably leaves the current generation of fakes somewhere in the uncanny valley. Secondly the fact that we know they're fake didn't impact the initial associations our brain will create upon seeing them. Expert fakes exist for celebrities that pass uncanny valley without the use of AI. There are sites dedicated to cataloging celebrity images and documenting if they are fake or not. Same with request threads and WYWD threads - the stuff on message boards can be pretty convincing, enough to get to those initial associations. I'm not sure why you think otherwise. The dark corners of the internet are full of this content. This cat is out of the bag and has been for some time. The frequency is only going to increase as the bar for generating these images lowers. Photoshoppers running request threads are the bottleneck right now; soon those threads are going to be replaced with generators that spit out 100s of candidate images. We don't really have control over how others use our likeness beyond the tools the law extends to us but, even then, it only addresses the problem after it happens and doesn't stop someone from doing it in the first place. I don't see us stopping it. If we can't stop it, we either let it happen to us or we figure out how to remove its power over us at an individual level (and help others do the same). I'd like to turn this around. You're bringing up a lot of problems without solutions. Other than shifting our view of these images on a person-to-person basis, how do you see us stopping it?