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I see this kind of "talking point" a lot when talking about crime in Sweden. But, if you actually think about it a bit, it doesn't make any sense. For example

I see this kind of "talking point" a lot when talking about crime in Sweden. But, if you actually think about it a bit, it doesn't make any sense. For example, your point about how "If a husband rapes his wife daily for a month" counts as 30 rapes - first, which jurisdictions in Europe would consolidate 30 rapes into a single rape count? Second, do you have any reason to think that the daily rape of wives by their husbands drives the high rape count in Sweden? I'm trying to imagine what you think is going on - the wife drops in to the police station to say "Hello, for the past thirty days my husband has been raping me" and the officer says "Okay, we'll mark down a 'one rape' on our books here." It's also an obvious rhetorical trick to compare present day rapes in Sweden to archaic laws that existed in the US until ~50 years ago. Why would you do that except to obfuscate? It's also disingenuous to talk about how Sweden's rape definition is broader. Do you know that? Have you reviewed rape definitions throughout all of Europe, or are you just repeating what Sweden's crime council says? If you took Sweden's rape definition and applied to every other country, or any standard rape definition and applied it to every country, how would Sweden rank. Have you done that? Or... When I write that Sweden is a regional leader in rape, what I mean is that Sweden's numbers, Sweden's rape stats, are higher than the numbers reported by every country in Europe. That's not perfect, and I agree that "rape capital" claims are complicated to evaluate - but it is first, true, and second an objective comparison (reported figures to reported figures). What you mean when you say this is a "right-wing trope" and a "deliberate misreading" is that there might exist measures, which you haven't shared or which are highly contrived, by which Sweden's rape rate is only in the top third or so of Europe. You write that "rape victims are more likely to report the crime when they have respect and trust in the police" but this is just more misleading "Maybe this" type of stuff. Do Swedish women trust the police more than the women of other countries in Europe? Have you ever looked into that? Swedish police have extremely low clearance rates for rape - why would Swedish women have special trust in them?

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
> t's also disingenuous to talk about how Sweden's rape definition is broader. Do you know that? Have you reviewed rape definitions throughout all of Europe, or are you just repeating what Sweden's crime council says? Appendix 1 of the 90 page document I linked has exactly this information. They also discuss it in detail, with citations of sources: > Eurostat’s definition of rape is broad: there is no need for force to be involved for the sexual act to be defined as rape, only a lack of valid consent. However, many countries lack the prerequisites for specifying how many such rapes are reported, as they have a narrower definition of rape in their national legislation. According to an analysis by the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE) from 2016, only seven countries in Europe had consent-based legislation. However, most countries did have various forms of exception to the need for the use of force, such as a victim who was sleeping or heavily intoxicated at the time of the incident. In one third of the countries analysed, some form of violence or threat was required for the act to be classified as rape. The European countries also differed in terms of the sexual acts included under rape in their national legislation. In 17 of the 30 countries encompassed by the study, only sexual intercourse was included in the definition of rape
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  So - you are just repeating what the Swedish crime council says? Let's look at the Appendix you cite. They have 4 sections and 5 big paragraphs of text explaining Sweden's rape definition. Then, they have a table giving rape definitions in other countries. First on the list is Belgium - a measly couple of sentences. Sweden's law covers threats of violence, sex acts that aren't penetration, unlawful coercion, and statutory rape. By contrast, Belgium's couple of sentences just cover sexual penetration without consent. Yes, Sweden's law definitely seems broader than Belgium's. But wait! If you go to wikipedia "Rape in Belgium" and click on the source for their definition, you can see the Belgium Penal code[1]. If you translate from French to English (let it load) and ctrl+f for "rape" you can find that sure enough Belgium penal code has rape definitions for unlawfully obtaining consent, non-penetrative sex acts, and statutory rape. So, tell me how is Sweden's definition of rape broader than Belgium's? In my opinion, if the government bureaucrats in charge of preventing crime are explaining to you that the super-high rape rate isn't a problem and is actually a right-wing conspiracy - that deserves a bit more skepticism than just uncritically repeating the summary they give. 1 - http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/loi_a1.pl?DETAIL=1867060801%2FF&caller=list&row_id=1&numero=2&rech=4&cn=1867060801&table_name=LOI&nm=1867060850&la=F&dt=CODE+PENAL&language=fr&fr=f&choix1=ET&choix2=ET&fromtab=loi_all&trier=promulgation&chercher=t&sql=dt+contains++%27CODE%27%26+%27PENAL%27and+actif+%3D+%27Y%27&tri=dd+AS+RANK+&imgcn.x=41&imgcn.y=12#LNK0111 http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/loi_a1.pl?DETAIL=18...
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-domestic-violence/europe/belgium/topics/1legal-provisions https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-... This lists what is counted as rape, and what is counted as other related definitions like "indecent assault with violence or threat" in Belgium. So, non-penetrative sex acts are not classed as rape. So if you compare "number of rapes" between two countries, some things will be counted in one country that aren't in another. Your evidence against this appears to be Ctrl-F in a Google translation? That's not really how this works. You seem simultaneously really invested in this, and at the same time not really willing to engage with the slightest bit of complexity when comparing crime statistics across mutiple countries.
cinntaile 4y ago
The irony is that countries that think women's rights are important will have high rape statistics compared to countries that don't think women's rights are all that important. The countries that think women's rights are important will also have less actual rapes.
eesmith 4y ago
> - first, which jurisdictions in Europe would consolidate 30 rapes into a single rape count? The Wikipedia link I mentioned says "In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.[23][13][24][15][16]" I verified the first three of those: [23] is by "Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm", and it seems you've decided that is not a reputable source. [13] says: "Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. In extreme cases only a single offence will be counted, and this seems to be the situation in at least 16 European countries according the Council of Europe’s presentation (Council of Europe 1999:1.C.1.1)." [24] gives an example of how Sweden differ from Norway and Denmark: "Furthermore, if a woman is subjected to repeated rapes during the same day by the same perpetrator, this may be registered as one or several crimes, depending on whether it is possible to distinguish each separate act. In Denmark and Norway, the statistics refer to cases. In general, one case will be opened for each victim, so the statistics do not indicate the actual number of rapes." > Second, do you have any reason to think that the daily rape of wives by their husbands drives the high rape count in Sweden? I have no reason to single out any particular factor. Rather, I am pointing out that your claim that Sweden is the top of Europe for rape is very difficult to support, and comparing raw numbers is effectively meaningless. > I'm trying to imagine what you think is going on - the wife drops in to the police station to say "Hello, for the past thirty days my husband has been raping me" That's an argument by incredulity. I found the paper by von Hofer (the [13] above) to be quite interesting because it addresses a similar example. Did you know that during one month in 1993 the number of rape reports in Sweden went from 150 to 270? Quoting von Hofer: the high figure recorded in 1993 is in large part the result of a single report relating to a young male victim who had been sexually abused by his stepfather over a 10-year period. This very special case describes in a nutshell a number of the characteristics typical of Swedish crime statistics: ] it is the number of ‘alleged’ offences that is counted, not victims or cases; the victim was not a female, but rather a male; ] none of the offences had been committed during 1993, but rather over the course of several years prior to this: the increase in rape offences in 1993 and the subsequent reduction is thus in part illusory, being the result of this ‘over-reporting’ in 1993; I also found it hard to imagine, but the point is, it happens. Don't use your incredulity as your simple reason to reject expert opinion. > It's also an obvious rhetorical trick to compare present day rapes in Sweden to archaic laws that existed in the US until ~50 years ago It's a rhetorical technique, yes. But it's not a disappearing trick. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_Sta... and see examples like: ] For instance, a person in Oklahoma can not charge her/his spouse for rape if she/he is compelled to submit due to drugs "administered by or with the privity of the accused as a means of forcing the victim to submit", or when she/he is unconscious, as these situations are dealt under subsection (A) of Section 1111 which define rape as intercourse "with a male or female who is not the spouse of the perpetrator". In Sweden, that counts as rape. In Oklahoma, it's not rape. > Have you done that? That's an obvious rhetorical trick too. I don't think you've done it either. Nor even read the sources Wikipedia cites, which is certainly easier to do. > what I mean is that Sweden's numbers, Sweden's rape stats, are higher Sure. And what I mean is, you cannot meaningfully use those numbers to conclude "rape capital". Again, for one month in 1993 the number of reported rapes in Sweden nearly doubled. For that month, did that Swedish province meaningfully become the rape capital of the country? I certainly don't think so. Even though that's using an "objective comparison (reported figures to reported figures)." > Do Swedish women trust the police more than the women of other countries in Europe? Have you ever looked into that? Swedish police have extremely low clearance rates for rape - why would Swedish women have special trust in them? Yes I did, back when this was the hot-topic pushed by right-wingers. The Swedish numbers regarding trust, clearance rates, etc. were better for Sweden than the US. (I am a US citizen, so that's what I cared about.) The Nordic countries trusted the police more than most of Europe. Quoting https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf ] Figure 2 shows that opinions of the procedural fairness of the police vary more widely across Europe. ... Ukraine, Russian Federation and Israel have the least positive views on how the police treat people, while Denmark, Finland, Norway and Spain have the most positive views. After Norway was Switzerland and then Sweden. And women in Sweden appear to "trust the police in how they handle their duties" https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-in-the-police-in-sweden-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-i... The clearance numbers were strongly affected by national policies concerning "report" and "crime" and how things are tallied. As I recall, that was in the BRÅ report which you appear to reject outright. But really, I did all this years ago and don't remember the details. I'm not going to be your personal research assistant while you Just Ask Questions.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

> t's also disingenuous to talk about how Sweden's rape definition is broader. Do you know that? Have you reviewed rape definitions throughout all of Europe, or are you just repeating what Sweden's crime council says? Appendix 1 of the 90 page document I linked has exactly this information. They also discuss it in detail, with citations of sources: > Eurostat’s definition of rape is broad: there is no need for force to be involved for the sexual act to be defined as rape, only a lack of valid consent. However, many countries lack the prerequisites for specifying how many such rapes are reported, as they have a narrower definition of rape in their national legislation. According to an analysis by the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE) from 2016, only seven countries in Europe had consent-based legislation. However, most countries did have various forms of exception to the need for the use of force, such as a victim who was sleeping or heavily intoxicated at the time of the incident. In one third of the countries analysed, some form of violence or threat was required for the act to be classified as rape. The European countries also differed in terms of the sexual acts included under rape in their national legislation. In 17 of the 30 countries encompassed by the study, only sexual intercourse was included in the definition of rape

ALittleLight 4y ago
So - you are just repeating what the Swedish crime council says? Let's look at the Appendix you cite. They have 4 sections and 5 big paragraphs of text explaining Sweden's rape definition. Then, they have a table giving rape definitions in other countries. First on the list is Belgium - a measly couple of sentences. Sweden's law covers threats of violence, sex acts that aren't penetration, unlawful coercion, and statutory rape. By contrast, Belgium's couple of sentences just cover sexual penetration without consent. Yes, Sweden's law definitely seems broader than Belgium's. But wait! If you go to wikipedia "Rape in Belgium" and click on the source for their definition, you can see the Belgium Penal code[1]. If you translate from French to English (let it load) and ctrl+f for "rape" you can find that sure enough Belgium penal code has rape definitions for unlawfully obtaining consent, non-penetrative sex acts, and statutory rape. So, tell me how is Sweden's definition of rape broader than Belgium's? In my opinion, if the government bureaucrats in charge of preventing crime are explaining to you that the super-high rape rate isn't a problem and is actually a right-wing conspiracy - that deserves a bit more skepticism than just uncritically repeating the summary they give. 1 - http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/loi_a1.pl?DETAIL=1867060801%2FF&caller=list&row_id=1&numero=2&rech=4&cn=1867060801&table_name=LOI&nm=1867060850&la=F&dt=CODE+PENAL&language=fr&fr=f&choix1=ET&choix2=ET&fromtab=loi_all&trier=promulgation&chercher=t&sql=dt+contains++%27CODE%27%26+%27PENAL%27and+actif+%3D+%27Y%27&tri=dd+AS+RANK+&imgcn.x=41&imgcn.y=12#LNK0111 http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/loi_a1.pl?DETAIL=18...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-domestic-violence/europe/belgium/topics/1legal-provisions https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/fighting-... This lists what is counted as rape, and what is counted as other related definitions like "indecent assault with violence or threat" in Belgium. So, non-penetrative sex acts are not classed as rape. So if you compare "number of rapes" between two countries, some things will be counted in one country that aren't in another. Your evidence against this appears to be Ctrl-F in a Google translation? That's not really how this works. You seem simultaneously really invested in this, and at the same time not really willing to engage with the slightest bit of complexity when comparing crime statistics across mutiple countries.

cinntaile 4y ago

The irony is that countries that think women's rights are important will have high rape statistics compared to countries that don't think women's rights are all that important. The countries that think women's rights are important will also have less actual rapes.

eesmith 4y ago

> - first, which jurisdictions in Europe would consolidate 30 rapes into a single rape count? The Wikipedia link I mentioned says "In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.[23][13][24][15][16]" I verified the first three of those: [23] is by "Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm", and it seems you've decided that is not a reputable source. [13] says: "Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. In extreme cases only a single offence will be counted, and this seems to be the situation in at least 16 European countries according the Council of Europe’s presentation (Council of Europe 1999:1.C.1.1)." [24] gives an example of how Sweden differ from Norway and Denmark: "Furthermore, if a woman is subjected to repeated rapes during the same day by the same perpetrator, this may be registered as one or several crimes, depending on whether it is possible to distinguish each separate act. In Denmark and Norway, the statistics refer to cases. In general, one case will be opened for each victim, so the statistics do not indicate the actual number of rapes." > Second, do you have any reason to think that the daily rape of wives by their husbands drives the high rape count in Sweden? I have no reason to single out any particular factor. Rather, I am pointing out that your claim that Sweden is the top of Europe for rape is very difficult to support, and comparing raw numbers is effectively meaningless. > I'm trying to imagine what you think is going on - the wife drops in to the police station to say "Hello, for the past thirty days my husband has been raping me" That's an argument by incredulity. I found the paper by von Hofer (the [13] above) to be quite interesting because it addresses a similar example. Did you know that during one month in 1993 the number of rape reports in Sweden went from 150 to 270? Quoting von Hofer: the high figure recorded in 1993 is in large part the result of a single report relating to a young male victim who had been sexually abused by his stepfather over a 10-year period. This very special case describes in a nutshell a number of the characteristics typical of Swedish crime statistics: ] it is the number of ‘alleged’ offences that is counted, not victims or cases; the victim was not a female, but rather a male; ] none of the offences had been committed during 1993, but rather over the course of several years prior to this: the increase in rape offences in 1993 and the subsequent reduction is thus in part illusory, being the result of this ‘over-reporting’ in 1993; I also found it hard to imagine, but the point is, it happens. Don't use your incredulity as your simple reason to reject expert opinion. > It's also an obvious rhetorical trick to compare present day rapes in Sweden to archaic laws that existed in the US until ~50 years ago It's a rhetorical technique, yes. But it's not a disappearing trick. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_Sta... and see examples like: ] For instance, a person in Oklahoma can not charge her/his spouse for rape if she/he is compelled to submit due to drugs "administered by or with the privity of the accused as a means of forcing the victim to submit", or when she/he is unconscious, as these situations are dealt under subsection (A) of Section 1111 which define rape as intercourse "with a male or female who is not the spouse of the perpetrator". In Sweden, that counts as rape. In Oklahoma, it's not rape. > Have you done that? That's an obvious rhetorical trick too. I don't think you've done it either. Nor even read the sources Wikipedia cites, which is certainly easier to do. > what I mean is that Sweden's numbers, Sweden's rape stats, are higher Sure. And what I mean is, you cannot meaningfully use those numbers to conclude "rape capital". Again, for one month in 1993 the number of reported rapes in Sweden nearly doubled. For that month, did that Swedish province meaningfully become the rape capital of the country? I certainly don't think so. Even though that's using an "objective comparison (reported figures to reported figures)." > Do Swedish women trust the police more than the women of other countries in Europe? Have you ever looked into that? Swedish police have extremely low clearance rates for rape - why would Swedish women have special trust in them? Yes I did, back when this was the hot-topic pushed by right-wingers. The Swedish numbers regarding trust, clearance rates, etc. were better for Sweden than the US. (I am a US citizen, so that's what I cared about.) The Nordic countries trusted the police more than most of Europe. Quoting https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf https://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/id/eprint/5237/1/5237.pdf ] Figure 2 shows that opinions of the procedural fairness of the police vary more widely across Europe. ... Ukraine, Russian Federation and Israel have the least positive views on how the police treat people, while Denmark, Finland, Norway and Spain have the most positive views. After Norway was Switzerland and then Sweden. And women in Sweden appear to "trust the police in how they handle their duties" https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-in-the-police-in-sweden-by-gender/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/661669/survey-on-trust-i... The clearance numbers were strongly affected by national policies concerning "report" and "crime" and how things are tallied. As I recall, that was in the BRÅ report which you appear to reject outright. But really, I did all this years ago and don't remember the details. I'm not going to be your personal research assistant while you Just Ask Questions.