4 ms·

What is the fix exactly?

jhbadger 4y ago
Time. People used to complain about Italian immigrants in the US. They seemed to have no interest in integrating, continued to speak Italian for generations, and were involved in criminal groups like the Mafia. But eventually they did integrate and nobody thinks US people of Italian ethnicity are a "problem" the way they did a hundred years ago.
- incomingpain 4y ago
  The USA has an entire history of $currentimmigrant are a bunch of impoverished not-assimilating people that the $citizens hate. You can basically apply that to any era and find the same. However, after time those immigrants contribute and make something. Irish/Italians made the east coast. Germans built the midwest. Jews built Hollywood. etc etc. Every single big racial migration event has in time been a hugely beneficial thing. The problem Sweden is learning. Their welfare system and large government is preventing the newcomers from starting.
  - njdvndsjkvn 4y ago
    >Irish/Italians made the east coast Do you mind explaining what you are referring to? I'm a bit ignorant of this era of US history. I thought the east coast was the "original" US - that is, the thirteen colonies. Specifically New York was most definitely "made" by this point, even before the US was a thing. The New York stock exchange was founded in 1792, just 16 years after the country was founded. And trade was always big in New York. I don't know much about the rest of the east coast so I may be missing some larger historical context here but I was under the impression that NY was the most important sate by far on the east coast and continues to be so.
- bubblegum5 4y ago
  Indeed, I think the American or perhaps the Canadian or Australian models were what Swedes had in mind when the allowed all the immigrants in from the Middle East. However, I think the entire point of the article is to point out the fact that not all immigrants - or cultures, in general - are the same. "Time" did not prove to be a miracle drug in ethnically and religiously war-torn Lebanon. And, given the ethnic and cultural proximity of these immigrants to Lebanon, it could be a more accurate reflection of the type of social tension that Sweden may be heading into, especially if the immigration from these countries continues. I'm not even making a value judgement at this point. I'm simply pointing out the fact that "Time" did not appear to cause Syria or Lebanon to be like Sweden as it was 20 years ago, or as you imagine it a hundred years from now. The thought that immigration always works out, even when the underlying cultures are incompatible, could be an illusion - one that Sweden is paying dearly for.
  - avar 4y ago
    You don't even need to find examples outside of America. The Amish have also been in America longer than Italians as a prominent immigrant group. They haven't "integrated" as a function of time in the sense that's being discussed here. All such historical comparisons are just cherry picking, or finding historical comparisons that fit the author's biases. One could also claim that Sweden will eventually end up splitting apart along religious lines, as happened in the Indian subcontinent with India and Pakistan.
incomingpain 4y ago
Exactly? That's probably the wrong word. There are many 'fixes' there's no 'here's the exact fix to the situation.' The author of the article is talking about 'integration' and such. I wonder how many people on HN, who are probably natural citizens, actually integrate with their society? I would guess that I'm not by many standards. Now lets say we want to go to the extent of getting some antisocial hackers integrated into society and contributing toward progress. What does that mean? It's not just speaking the language. Something the author clearly doesn't know is that Turkey took in far greater numbers than they ever did. Turkey also has far more experience with immigration. Turkey also has tremendously higher immigrant crime than USA and Sweden. Yet where's the bombing exactly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#/media/File:Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#/media/F... So what gives? What is integration? Well maslows heirarchy of needs is explanatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#/media/File:Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs2.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#... Your most basic needs like food and water require you to have a job. So do these immigrants have jobs? No they dont. The article says unemployment is high. Is this because they are lazy? No certainly not. Now they go on welfare in order to live, which the author touts but that's not good. That's very bad. They need a job asap. This is the key spot that must be worked on and welfare is the opposite of what you want to do. I bet you can see where this goes. Libertarianism and smaller government. Do ANYTHING to get them employed and the government can't be involved for or against. Deregulate whatever you have to. Make these problematic suburbs into free trade zones if you need to.

Time. People used to complain about Italian immigrants in the US. They seemed to have no interest in integrating, continued to speak Italian for generations, and were involved in criminal groups like the Mafia. But eventually they did integrate and nobody thinks US people of Italian ethnicity are a "problem" the way they did a hundred years ago.

incomingpain 4y ago
The USA has an entire history of $currentimmigrant are a bunch of impoverished not-assimilating people that the $citizens hate. You can basically apply that to any era and find the same. However, after time those immigrants contribute and make something. Irish/Italians made the east coast. Germans built the midwest. Jews built Hollywood. etc etc. Every single big racial migration event has in time been a hugely beneficial thing. The problem Sweden is learning. Their welfare system and large government is preventing the newcomers from starting.
- njdvndsjkvn 4y ago
  >Irish/Italians made the east coast Do you mind explaining what you are referring to? I'm a bit ignorant of this era of US history. I thought the east coast was the "original" US - that is, the thirteen colonies. Specifically New York was most definitely "made" by this point, even before the US was a thing. The New York stock exchange was founded in 1792, just 16 years after the country was founded. And trade was always big in New York. I don't know much about the rest of the east coast so I may be missing some larger historical context here but I was under the impression that NY was the most important sate by far on the east coast and continues to be so.
bubblegum5 4y ago
Indeed, I think the American or perhaps the Canadian or Australian models were what Swedes had in mind when the allowed all the immigrants in from the Middle East. However, I think the entire point of the article is to point out the fact that not all immigrants - or cultures, in general - are the same. "Time" did not prove to be a miracle drug in ethnically and religiously war-torn Lebanon. And, given the ethnic and cultural proximity of these immigrants to Lebanon, it could be a more accurate reflection of the type of social tension that Sweden may be heading into, especially if the immigration from these countries continues. I'm not even making a value judgement at this point. I'm simply pointing out the fact that "Time" did not appear to cause Syria or Lebanon to be like Sweden as it was 20 years ago, or as you imagine it a hundred years from now. The thought that immigration always works out, even when the underlying cultures are incompatible, could be an illusion - one that Sweden is paying dearly for.
- avar 4y ago
  You don't even need to find examples outside of America. The Amish have also been in America longer than Italians as a prominent immigrant group. They haven't "integrated" as a function of time in the sense that's being discussed here. All such historical comparisons are just cherry picking, or finding historical comparisons that fit the author's biases. One could also claim that Sweden will eventually end up splitting apart along religious lines, as happened in the Indian subcontinent with India and Pakistan.

incomingpain 4y ago

Exactly? That's probably the wrong word. There are many 'fixes' there's no 'here's the exact fix to the situation.' The author of the article is talking about 'integration' and such. I wonder how many people on HN, who are probably natural citizens, actually integrate with their society? I would guess that I'm not by many standards. Now lets say we want to go to the extent of getting some antisocial hackers integrated into society and contributing toward progress. What does that mean? It's not just speaking the language. Something the author clearly doesn't know is that Turkey took in far greater numbers than they ever did. Turkey also has far more experience with immigration. Turkey also has tremendously higher immigrant crime than USA and Sweden. Yet where's the bombing exactly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#/media/File:Denmark_crime_index_year_2015_immigrant_men_15-79_yo_per_country._Adjusted_for_age.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#/media/F... So what gives? What is integration? Well maslows heirarchy of needs is explanatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#/media/File:Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs2.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#... Your most basic needs like food and water require you to have a job. So do these immigrants have jobs? No they dont. The article says unemployment is high. Is this because they are lazy? No certainly not. Now they go on welfare in order to live, which the author touts but that's not good. That's very bad. They need a job asap. This is the key spot that must be worked on and welfare is the opposite of what you want to do. I bet you can see where this goes. Libertarianism and smaller government. Do ANYTHING to get them employed and the government can't be involved for or against. Deregulate whatever you have to. Make these problematic suburbs into free trade zones if you need to.